Invisible Wounds

Not all wounds of war are visible to the naked eye. Air Force veteran Elisa Escalante knows this all to well as a former mental health technician in uniform and out. She has seen first hand the invisible wounds suffered both in and out of the war zone. Military trauma can develop in many ways, but one thing remains constant, dealing with these complex wounds can be difficult. With all this experience over the years, Elisa has just released her first book titled, Unseen: Uncovering the Invisible Wounds of Military Trauma which is available at Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

Guest Links:

https://www.elisaescalante.com

https://www.amazon.com/Unseen-Uncovering-Invisible-Wounds-Military/dp/1631953532

Transcript from Episode 20 with Elisa Escalante:

Keith McKeever 0:29

Welcome to the battle buddy podcast with Keith McKeever. Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the battle buddy podcast. I have a good friend Lisa Escalante here with me. We met in clubhouse what seems like our forever ago. don't exactly know when that was. But we've had so many conversations and you've had rooms with LJ talking about your book, which is exactly what we're going to talk about today. But I kind of want to open with something that I didn't tell you a couple of minutes ago, when we were kind of chatting before this. But there's something I wrote down in the very beginning of reading your book that is kind of stuck with me, and I want to read it so I don't mess it up. We were forced to find peace and chaos is suffering, you will be chaotic, even at peace. You can take the human out of the nightmare, but the nightmare is still in them. I don't know where you got that or if you came up with that way yourself. But it is brilliant. I love it. It makes so much sense. And literally, them I if I remember right, that was like very early in the book. But it stuck with me enough to write that down in my notes.

Elisa Escalante 1:32

Yeah, I think it's actually Yeah, and I did write that quote, I know, I started every chapter with the quote. And some of the quotes I wrote specifically for the chapter. Well, many of the quotes I've written before I even wrote the book. And I was just searching through my quote page and finding what applied, you know, most appropriately. And I think that was the therapy and a warzone chapter, I believe,

Keith McKeever 1:59

for well could have been I know, it was right there in the beginning. Because that was like right after you, you know, I got access to the you gave me a copy of the book after pre ordering it, which is now available for purchase on Amazon, by the way. But go ahead and tell us about yourself and your book.

Elisa Escalante 2:14

Yeah, thank you. Um, I'm Elisa Air Force veteran, I worked as a mental health technician for six years active duty, I had a deployment to Afghanistan in 2012, where I was working in a combat stress clinic. After I got out, I decided to become a social worker in New York City, and the VA hired me, specifically, I worked out of that center. And for those that don't know, the eligibility is either combat that or and or military sexual trauma. And I've done that for three and a half years, recently resigned earlier this year. And I'm about to start a new research position for the Air Force. So I'm excited about that as well. Research for Air Force suicides, specifically. And that's where I'm at right now. And the book launch date. Officially, it was yesterday. So I'm so you know, I'm excited. And I'm nervous. And thanks for oh,

Keith McKeever 3:25

yeah, so the title of your book is unseen, uncovering invisible wounds. I think I got that got that right off the top my head here. But you gave me access after I pre ordered it months ago, I read through it. I was just telling you a few minutes ago, just kind of rereading through it. And there's so many parts that just it's amazing, you know, when you have PTSD, and you read through it, you're like, ah, you know, okay, cool. That's me, or that somebody I know, I see these things, you recognize it. But like I told you a few minutes ago, the really important thing that I noticed, right towards the end of the book, you know, right towards the end of part three, right, before you kind of go into resources and stuff like that your forward section, I think it is, is wow, this is beneficial. And this is a must read. And I say I've got it on my website under the you know, reading list for on battle, buddy podcast.net. But this is not just a must read for veterans. This is absolute. I repeat, absolute must read for anybody living with a veteran with PTSD. Yeah, that's it. I think it's even more powerful for the wives, the husbands, the daughters, the sons, the parents, the boyfriends, girlfriends, whatever. Whoever you are, if you're connected to somebody in the military, community, military veteran, whatever, it has PTSD, this is hands down the read you need to because you found a way to make it understandable in like bite size nuggets, because none of the chapters are obsessively long. You know, you're A licensed clinical social worker, but it's not like a medical journal. I've never read medical journals, because that's definitely not My Degree Path. But I can tell you the business ones are dry, sometimes I can only imagine the medical ones. But you know, you just wrote it from a totally different perspective, you know, through your eyes, through your opinions through the conversations you've had with probably hundreds or 1000s of service members. And it's brilliant. So thank you, thank you for writing it. And I have no doubt it's gonna be helpful for so many people.

Elisa Escalante 5:32

Yeah, I definitely steered clear of using too much heavy psychological terms. I didn't want to go for that. Because we already have that, you know, there's so many textbooks on PTSD, though, I know. And, you know, no, I don't have to sit here and, you know, write for the millionth time, what it is, and the specific diagnosis and all the symptoms, there's so many things that cover that, you know, I wanted to give a unique perspective, something, but something that was relatable, and simpler to read. And you're right, in that family members, or anyone that's connected to that, it's gonna be helpful for them too. Because, as a veteran, we at least we understand we're suffering, we may not be put words to it all the time, but we know what we feel. And the family members don't, you know, so for them on the outside looking? Looking at us, it's confusing, like, there's a lot of unanswered questions. And like I talked about in the book, we're not necessarily saying these things out loud, or, you know, talking about how we're suffering. So they're gonna be very confused, you know, what they what they see is the behaviors. So I think that this is definitely going to answer a lot of questions for

Keith McKeever 6:53

I think it definitely will. And like I told you a few minutes ago, I'm going to pass this on to my family members. You know, it's not not just my wife, but, you know, other family members that I have in my family who are living with veterans who could really hurt not veterans themselves. So might open up some ideas, might look at situations a little differently might recognize some certain things. I certainly hope so. But those back up a little bit. Went to all the way back when you enlisted 18, right.

Elisa Escalante 7:23

Yes, 12 days.

Keith McKeever 7:28

So did you choose the mental health career field? Was that or did you land in it? I know you had some some some issues in your life growing up. I didn't know if that was something that you purposely chose, or if it just kind of fell in your lap there?

Elisa Escalante 7:42

Well, I was it's funny, because before I enlisted, I remember having like these torn moments where I was like, do I want to be a psychologist? Or do I want to go in the Air Force? That was like one of my little torn moments when I was a teenager, thinking about what do I want to do? And then I found out, oh, I can go I can enlist in the military and be in the mental health field. That's pretty awesome. But I did take a risk. And I went in open general, because there, I wanted to, like start as soon as possible. So the recruiter just told me bring some certificates and you know, some letters of recommendation from your teachers, and then maybe you'll get the mental health field if you're lucky. So I went in there with that knowledge, and I requested mental health, you know, week five of boot camp. And I did what the recruiter said, because I was a pure mediator in high school. So I would help kids resolve like conflicts and stuff. It was just something I, you know, did, you know, vote, you know, I volunteered for, and then, and then I got it. And then when I started tech school, and I started learning about mental health, it just felt like the right fit immediately.

Keith McKeever 8:57

That's incredible. I think you should go by like, as soon as we're done today, you should go to the store and buy some lottery tickets, because you might be like, the luckiest person in the world who have been interested in that and got good advice from a recruiter that actually paid off. If you still didn't open general and get what you needed. Three forces I think we've talked about this probably many times, like, darn near anybody I knew who goes goes in the Air Force, open general is going to end up a cop. You're either going to end up working gates or flipping burgers. The services folks Hey, you know, I appreciate y'all hanging out towels in the gym and everything but like, let's just be honest. That's what the US Air Force does, like, well, you know, we always we always need people to flip burgers and handout towels and work gates. So yeah, that should seriously go go buy a lottery ticket for crying out loud.

Elisa Escalante 9:54

I have I don't win but you know when

Keith McKeever 9:58

I say you might use all your luck Look you had in your life might have already a minor already use it. So you know, so when you when you were serving you know how, how difficult was it for you being in the mental health field, knowing that there was the stigma, you know, every career field had it I know mine did you know, especially security forces you carrying a weapon. You know, first thing I tell you, like when I came back from my first deployment was don't go talk to mental health, they're gonna take your weapon away. And when you carry a weapon every single day, and that's part of your job and your identity and the culture of your unit. It that peer pressure was not always peers, you know, higher ups and everything to it. It plants the seed in your mind, like you can't go like there's no way. Like it just reinforces its strengths and strengthens what strengthens this society as Americans against mental health counseling. So how difficult was that being in a career field that you have passion for? And kind of combating this constantly? People not really wanting to go?

Elisa Escalante 11:06

Yeah, I think they in mental health, they teach us to respect self determination a lot. So it really means accepting that, you know, it's voluntary, and people are either going to want to go and they're not, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean that those that are not going don't need it. It's just that they have to be there. They have to be in that place in their life where they've decided, I'm open to getting help, like, this isn't working for me. Because if you don't have them in that place, therapy just becomes pointless. It's going to be counterproductive, it's going to waste their time. So we want people to show up volunteer, you know, voluntarily. And if they still have, you know, they still have the reservations against going then they're not ready to be a client just yet. So so we accept that. But the area where I really got to destigmatize a lot was actually when I was in Afghanistan, because we got to do walk abouts. You know, you know what that is walk about, but I'll explain it further. Like, it's literally just walking around the fob and talking to you guys. And that's where I really got to destigmatize mental health. Because, yeah, everyone's kind of laughing at you saying, Oh, you work in mental health. Oh, that's for crazy, you know, crazy people, or whatever, like, No, I would never go there, blah, blah, blah, I would never talk to people. But before that, before you know it, they're talking to me for like an hour or an hour and a half. And then they're venting. And they're telling me what's hard about the deployment. But because it's not in a therapy office, instead, it's just outside near their work section, or we're like sitting on a bench. They don't realize that, hey, you're actually getting therapy right now. And you don't even realize it.

Keith McKeever 13:03

Yeah, just thinking I mean, it's either in a neutral environment or a positive, comfortable environment for them.

Elisa Escalante 13:11

Yeah. And then they realized, oh, talking to this person wasn't so bad, you know, and it really wasn't, and then they're more likely to come to your office later and talk to you again, because you built that rapport with them. So outreach was always the easiest way for me to destigmatize, because once I have a conversation with someone, then they realize, okay, it's not so bad to go get help. This person isn't judging me, or, you know, looking at me, like, I'm crazy, because I'm telling them these things, you know, I'm helping normalize some of those emotions that, you know, came with being in a combat zone.

Keith McKeever 13:50

There certainly is a lot more emotions and thoughts and, you know, you can go up and down that roller coaster, you know, real quick and I guess, I guess I should just talk stop and take a take a timeout before we kind of get into the book or go any farther. And just for anybody watching or listening at any point in time now or in the future, you know, you are a licensed clinical social worker, but we're on a podcast here, you know, we're not doing any counseling here. And that you know, this is about your book and just kind of general conversation. But I think we should throw out a little bit of a trigger warning because I don't know where things go and things might pop up. So you know, if if somebody you know hear something or whatever and starts to trigger you go get help talk to somebody turn this off if you need to, I hate says a podcaster. But if it starts to trigger you turn it off, do whatever you got to do to take care of yourself Self Care first, and then call whoever you need to call to, you know, get yourself right back on the right path because at the end of the day, we want you we want you here tomorrow, instead of not here tomorrow. So but that's it, you know you have a unique perspective and I love your new job too, with research in the Air Force, might be kind of biased to be an Air Force as well. But I know the career field I was in average is probably 1012 suicides a year that I, that I see on Facebook, when people are posting the badge, you know, with the black band on it. And that's what, that's what I see in Assam has been out for 10 years. So I'm sure the number is much higher, especially for the veteran population of the career field that we don't hear about. And so I, you know, you have very unique perspective of being in Air Force veteran, you were in the mental health field there. And now you're doing the research. So I applaud you for applying for the job, and Congrats on getting it and, and all the success that you'll have, we got to get this number lowered. The numbers, regardless of branch is too much. So

Elisa Escalante 15:54

I actually I was informed, I was informed, I was active duty that security forces did have the highest side rate when I was in, and that was 2008 to 2014. And perhaps it's still the same, that it's it has the highest rate, but I remember that and security forces and then aircraft maintenance, I believe, was a number two.

Keith McKeever 16:19

Doesn't surprise me. But I know I can't speak for maintenance, but I'm sure there's a lot of pressure, you know, to keep planes flying and keep them maintained. Security forces, there was definitely a lot of pressure because I was in Oh, six to 2011. And the first couple years I was in until the war in Iraq kind of wrapped up. We're supporting two wars, every airbase needs cops, you know, that's why it's the largest career field in the Air Force. But the operations tempo one point in time was almost six months home six months gone. You know, and I knew guys that had been doing that somehow sustaining it for five or six years. And it's like, that's, that's a lot of deployment time. You know, I mean, that's not enough downtime back home, you know, when the rest of the airforce cuz I know, you were in for like four years before you deployed. I knew people that we had almost done a run entire career in the middle of two wars, and never deployed. I knew people that were fighting in their career fields. Really hard to get a deployment. Yeah. And here we were, we had no choice. It wasn't like six months, gone six months back. I mean, I did almost eight months on my first deployment with an extension because it was an O seven, and the surge got back a few months later, they're sent me on a not a deployment, definitely not a deployment, but a long six months TDY. And in South America, which definitely was not as dangerous. There was some danger down there. potential danger with the drug cartels and everything. And then I got back PCs, discutir Force Base. And Chief just when I met the chief, she's like, you know, how do you feel about deployment? And I told her, I said, I know how much time I have left in. And I know it's enough time for one more deployment. So with all due respect me, I'm I don't care if you send me an hour, you send me six months from now, I know you're gonna send me somewhere, doesn't matter. We were, you know, I didn't have a guy. I knew how the game was. And she was like, Okay, do you mind going out? So that's, that's fine. So they threw him out of deployment. And I want to blog for six months. So

Elisa Escalante 18:21

yeah, you've done. Like, one deployment is more than enough, you know, but like people that have multiple deployments, it's just, it's just insane. And like working in Afghanistan with because I was on an army job. So I was, my clients were mostly soldiers. And a lot of them had gone to Iraq, before Afghanistan. So it was really interesting to hear their stories, you know, from Iraq, and then talking about how Afghanistan may have been retriggering some of the trauma that they already have from their first deployment, and it's just so much, you know, often wondering, how, how much can one person really, really take that really, it wears and tears on people?

Keith McKeever 19:11

Ya know, you know, when I was in they were, see, you know, seven, I think it was early in that deployment, the army had made the decision, like six months, maybe six months or a year before that, to go from 12 month deployments to like 15 months, then they extended everybody to like, 18. And it's like, wow, that's, that's, you know, by comparison, in the Vietnam War, most guys were there for 12 months, maybe a couple of days short, maybe a couple of days longer, whatever, but about 12 months, you know, and most guys it was kind of a one and done. You know, some guys would go back a second time and you know, a few people went back a handful of times. But you know, to do to do 18 months and then come home and then probably be right back out the door for another deployment IE, maybe a year later. Yeah, I didn't have time to decompress.

Elisa Escalante 20:03

I worked with some people like, like the pattern we're talking about, you know, depending on their career field, but be like a year deployed, and then a year back home, and then a year deploy, then a year back home, and then a year deployed again. And sometimes some of them had said it was all Afghanistan. And they were really starting to feel like that was their primary home at that point. Because when you're like, shifting between two worlds, and it's 5050, it was just like, that became their home versus actual home. And I don't know, it was just kind of wild.

Keith McKeever 20:44

That is wild, because I mean, I had, I had times, honestly, and you kind of hit on in the book a little bit that some people just feel more comfortable in a combat environment. Now, both my deployments I was young and single. So I didn't have a fan. I mean, I had my, my mother and my sister and my family, but I didn't have like a wife and kids at the time. And, you know, there was times where, you know, back home station, I'm like, Man, I just wish I was deployed. You know, it's weird for people who've never deployed, because everything's so simple. And so it may seem like a complex world, you got all these parties and movements, and combat and non combat and all these things going on around you. But it's actually simple. It's really, really simple. Or as hell, it's disgusting. It's disturbing. We all have a little different piece of the pie what, why we're there and what we do what we see and experience, but it's hell. But at the same time, it's simple. I was young, a single, I had no bills, nothing. I had no wife. And I mean, I would call home and talk to my mother every now and then, or my stepdad or my sister or whatever. But life was simple. There was no cares. It was literally every day, what do I got to do today to make it tough till tomorrow? All these things in the civilian world, you got to think of bills and medical stuff, and this and that, and, and telemarketers calling you and stuff like that. You don't have to worry about it. It was simple. What do I have to do today to live till tomorrow? What is my mission? What is my goals? Everything is like laid out for you. You're trained everybody around us trained. It's just such a simple world. And in so many ways. It's in so many other ways. It's complex. But I know you know what I'm talking about. And yeah, other people and you just kind of yearn for that simplicity, even though it's dangerous or inherently dangerous.

Elisa Escalante 22:35

Yeah, I often tell people a story about how I had one of my most euphoric moments, you know, in Afghanistan, where I'm just sitting on a swing, I don't even remember the name of the fob, because I traveled a lot, you know, because combat stresses and everywhere. So we traveled a lot. And I just remember sitting on a swing, drinking the first cup of coffee I had in months, and just feeling the happiest I've ever felt in my life. Like, but in, you know, in a combat zone, and I'm like, What is this and it, it's strange, and it's surreal. And yet, it was like, one of the most peace moments I've ever felt. And there was definitely attacks, you know, that happened on my base, you know, like before that, and, like you said, what you're saying, I've definitely heard a lot of people describe, and I relate to it, that it's scary and dangerous at times, and yet, the most simple life can ever be, because it's my mission, do that, do that mission. And don't forget to also take care of yourself in some way, shape, or form, so that you're able to keep doing that mission. And all the rest of life, life's burdens need to be off of you, you know, whatever's going on back home, needs to be off of you. And some of the people that struggled the most like the family thing. It's hit or miss. Because I've seen some people, they've got their family support system, like their spouse and kids back home. And it gives them some hope, you know, and it gives them something to kind of think about it gets them through it. But then you always you have those cases where the family back home is actually making it harder. You know, the deployment harder if they're argumentative, or they're trying to burden the truth with the drama that's going on backstage sites. So I think most people have a story where they were at the USO talking on the phone, and then they heard someone next to them screaming at their spouse, or whatever. I mean, I know I heard a couple of

Keith McKeever 24:49

big back but you know, probably

Elisa Escalante 24:53

the drama going on back home and they're like maybe it's good that I didn't get married before my deployment.

Keith McKeever 25:01

Well, I know I still freaked out some my family I know, there was multiple times where, you know, indirect fire was coming in. And I was, you know, sitting in the little shack there with the phones talking to my mother. And I remember, you know, everybody's hitting the floor, and I just reached up and grabbed the phone and pull it down. I said, What's that sound? That's all it's just incoming rounds. You know, just like, nonchalantly you know, because, you know, another weird thing that happens in war is I remember, I didn't feel this as much the second time going into Iraq, because I knew it was a large base and our support structure, but the first time going in. Man, that was just so many emotions in your mind. It was middle the night, we were loaded up on British Merlin helicopters, because they would only fly at night. And that's when we were going in to camp Buka, which was the prison camp I was being deployed to, but being 21 years old, going in your first deployment, about to step on a helicopter and flying to a combat zone, you know, and then halfway through the flight, they fired off flares for some reason, I don't know if we were being shot at or if there was just the bridge trying to fuck with us. But, you know, you're sitting there and it's pitch black and all you got is like a three day pack in your rifle. And they gave us like one magazine. And it was really going a handful of miles into Iraq. But you know, pitch black and helicopter blades and you just kind of soak in all of a sudden, these flares fly off and like what the fuck? Like what is going on? You know, what, what have I gotten myself into, you know, the the whole world just change. And it was probably sometime before that. But definitely after that, you just get to the point where like, any day now, any second now could be the end of my life. And that is a weird place for human brain to be to just be like weirdly okay with dying, not suicidal. But you're just weirdly okay with the idea that you just might die in the next second. Almost second deployment, we had a guy security forces. He was part of the off base patrols, and it was near our armory. But I guess he had forgotten something in the Humvee. And they had upstaged, and the doors open in the body armor hanging on whatever. I guess the guy was just walking through the parking lot and another guy, but he was walking through the parking lot and somebody off base had fire some AK rounds in the air, celebratory fire. Well, what goes up must come down, do just walking through the parking lot and gets whacked with one round right into his left arm.

Elisa Escalante 27:27

Oh, damn.

Keith McKeever 27:28

You know what I mean? Like, after that moment, you're like, wow, what are the odds that that one bullet came? And if he made a misstep, you know, four inches to the left? Yeah, he'd been gone. Yep. You know, and things like they just kind of get you thinking, you're like, shit. Yeah, your life is fragile, and weird things can happen, you know, at a moment's notice. And that's the weird reality of war. And and you just kind of brush it off. You're like, wow, it sucks to be him. glad he's okay. You know, I mean, we had a world class hospital there, he was taken care of immediately. I don't I don't know the guy. But then I know, he was fine. I'm sure he was surprised is extremely surprised. And one heck of a way to get a Purple Heart, I guess. But, you know, but it's definitely one of those things. It's like, wow, you know, all kinds of crazy things can happen to you. You know, and you got to be okay with dying.

Elisa Escalante 28:22

In your, you're also speaking on? Yeah, I'd say some unconditional acceptance of wars. But you're also speaking on intellectualization. And that was something that I also wrote about in the chapter titled Warzone adaptation, where there's specific defense mechanisms that we must use in order to survive that type of environment. And intellectualization is one of the ones I mentioned. And an example would be me often saying to myself, you know, statistically, I'm more likely to die in the US in a car crash than I am to die in Afghanistan. And that was something that I said to myself, and it always seemed to call my nerves and other like little examples would be, I hear a bomb go off. And I'd say to myself, Well, I heard it, so I'm still alive. So I'm already you know, incoming and at toward the end of my deployment, it became so normal that when I'd hear bombs, and then you know, they say shelter in place, I got to a point where I'm like, fuck that. I want to take a shower. And I just walk to the shower and my PT gear, you know, and you know, that's not smart or good, but I got to that point, and I'm just and then I had the best shower of my life, because I was the only one in there and

Keith McKeever 29:46

yell at you for not taking the combat shower. You know, I did the same thing actually. I felt the same way about incoming fire on my first deployment, but I had a strange go down a rabbit whole story here. My second deployment epilogue I guess I'll back up my first deployment, it can't boot up. We lived in these like trailers. And it was like 10 people crammed in there, there was gear everywhere, you know, as a pretty good roommates even though they were on the opposite shift. So I had to learn how to fall asleep with the lights on. There's no way to block those bulbs out, but you know, get you certain things, right. So a second appointment comes around, and I've got a room, that's probably twice as big there. Same number of bunk beds in there. But there's only four of us. And the other three guys are all like brand new Airman First Class first deployment. Both of them have been, you know, at that point, I had boots that have been in, you know, being warned longer than they had been in the Air Force. And I'm walking back from somewhere. And I hear incoming here, the sea rams go off, I hear a couple of explosions. And I'm just walking and I see all these people kind of dive in, in the bunkers. And I haven't seen thought like, fucking didn't, didn't hit me. Not did, you know, I knew where I was at. And I could kind of judge from the distance. And of course, at a bigger base like that, obviously, all the incoming rounds are trying to hit the aircraft. You know, we were a stone's throw away from them. But you know, it was it was off in the distance. And I knew it. And so I go walk back to my room and two of my roommates are in there like under their beds literally shaking. It's the first time they've been shot at. And one looks up at me. And he goes, Why aren't you taking cover? Yeah, so I heard it explode. It's all good. It already already blew up. If it didn't blow up, you'll do get the ones that didn't. I mean, he's just shaking. I mean, just his eyes are bull jobs head is you know, and so he goes, What should I do? So well. You can stand your butt. Get out from your bed and throw if you're on if it makes you feel any better. Or you can kind of go about your day in the room here, because it's probably over with. He was what are you going to do and I had a PlayStation, I bought a plate TV off somebody, I pulled out my little folding chair, kick my feet up, turn on the PlayStation. I said, I'm playing video games. And I'll be darned if both of this stayed in, stay under their bed until the all clear. You know, and it was like, one of those bonuses like I look back on them, like, I should have just hung out in the bunker for the extra 10 minutes, or whatever. But I just didn't care. You know, I just kind of just quickly assess the situation. It's okay, it exploded over there somewhere. I heard it. You know, by the time the sea ramp goes off in the in the in the alarm goes off, they already been shot. You know, and if I've heard the explosion they've already landed. So, you know, unless there's a second round coming in. I'm probably pretty good. Exactly. You know, and I know that feeling. And that story is definitely not unique to me. I'm sure has been other people have versions of that story. You know, I think we all do it to some extent, you know, you see some people dive and some people just like yeah, well, you know, I'll just take what happens.

Elisa Escalante 33:02

Example of, you know, you've like that defense mechanism, like you definitely had it in this in very clearly practiced it. Well, and, you know, that's your second deployment, too. And I don't know, I'm just laughing because I'm thinking they must have been looking at you like you were a lunatic are so

Keith McKeever 33:21

nuts. Like, I was out of my mind, you know, I mean, I was, I mean, you were all bright and bright, like, looking at me, like, you know, this guy's either nuts, or he's brave as shit. Well, nearly one, I just didn't care, you know what I mean? Like,

Elisa Escalante 33:37

not numbing. sized. But it's like, it's, the brain is just so fascinating, because it will do these things for us. And, you know, we're not even necessarily consciously aware that that's happening, you know, it just becomes the norm. And yet, that is definitely very sophisticated defense mechanisms that your brain was doing for you to get through like a war zone environment. And then that was your second one. So your brain just shifted into that mode probably immediately when you got there. Because I mean, your body in your mind knew what it takes already. You know, to get Yes.

Keith McKeever 34:21

You know, like fight or flight response, right? Anything something happens, you only have two basic responses. And it's weird, like looking back and as you kind of mentioned that it's like, Okay, where did that fall in? We're on that line of fight or fight, fight or flight did that, you know, just not giving a shit those defense mechanisms where did that fall? You know, because I was running away and trying to hide and protect myself pastures, heck, well, you know, obviously couldn't really fight back. You know, so it's kind of weird. I don't know if it's on that end.

Elisa Escalante 34:53

Good. But yeah, so much see the people that were talking to you the people that were under the bed They were in the fight or flight mode. You know, you you were in, like I said, a more sophisticated defense mechanism in your mind, you know that you're more conditioned. And I've noticed that, especially with re deployers. You know, people have multiple deployments, they're more conditioned to it. And they have more mature responses to the warzone, because they've been there already. And, you know, maybe, you know, on some level, you don't want to waste your mental energy, you know, dealing with those fears, because you already know what the outcome might be, like you said, You You're intellectualizing that situation. Really well. Yeah. So like,

Keith McKeever 35:46

I'll throw a sports analogy in there. It's kind of like what they talk about with like NFL quarterbacks, right? The first couple years, they may be bad, because everything is so fast, like everything's being thrown at them really fast, they got to learn a bunch of things. They're seeing new things, right, because everybody's bigger, stronger, faster in NFL, but then they always talk about, you know, the good quarterbacks eventually have that moment where everything slows down. They just see everything more clearly. They can they can react to things better. And I kind of just, I think it's something kind of like that, you know, you just see certain things and you can react to that. Is it dangerous? Does that hurt me? Does it not hurt me? Like, what am I going to do? You know, and then, you know, don't want to put my energy into it, because I had another thing happened on that deployment. I had an NCO that I work with. And sometimes I was the sometimes I was in the area where we check in the third country nationals that would come in with the biometrics tool sets and all that stuff and search their trucks. Sometimes I worked in air, sometimes I was on the Humvee. And we'd be out doing off base patrol, the perimeter checks, and, you know, covering convoys, and they come in all kinds of stuff. Well, we had an NCO, I'm definitely not going to name them, but he would let them walk around with to your budget. And he was the NCO that everybody thought was cool, because he'd let them get away with anything. And this guy deployed multiple times, it's always kind of surprised me, but that's why the story kind of comes up. So I had been martyred and rocketed so many times on my first deployment. Now, luckily, most of them weren't that close. But it happened on almost on a weekly basis. I don't know where this guy had been. But we were on the perimeter, the base convoys come in and out. So you got big vehicles moving. You got potential threats everywhere. And I always I would pull these airmen to the side. And I was like, hey, one earbud put in one. Because if you have to in and the music's too loud, you may not hear that engine, you may not hear the Hawk, and you may not hear the incoming, and it could save your life. Or your wing man. Right? And I thought I was in the right, man, I got my ass chewed, like you wouldn't believe you're just a senior airman. Don't you tell these other airmen what to do? That's literally what I got. And I was just like, Okay, fine. That's on you. Yes. I was just trying to just be like, I don't care if you listen to music, and one year, but, you know, just one. Because at the end of day, I was felt like, okay, it's my life depends on the two, essentially, I mean, you know, all kinds of weird situations can happen. Man that irritated me that drove that person, I'm not gonna name the guy's name, but it definitely drove a wedge between us. And we really didn't like each other after that. Because I was like, Wow, that's pretty, pretty fucked up. Have you just not really cared about your, you know, your airman that much? You know, we're getting caught talking convoys of trucks. We're talking 3040 50 semis, plus the combat units, the Army units that are in marine units that are escorting them in, you know, you're talking anywhere from a minimum of 20 trucks to 100 150. That's a lot of vehicles. And if you're not paying attention, you know, have your earbuds in and walk out and don't know something's coming in. I don't know. You know, it's crazy.

Elisa Escalante 38:57

The best leaders were the ones that understood that there are some lower ranking people that know more than them about certain situations, right? Like, I respected like those senior NCOs, for example, that could go to like an NCO like a lower tier, and CEO and say, Hey, how is this done? Or maybe that officer that deployed and it's their first deployment, and then the NCO is deployed three times? And they say, Hey, how was this done? You know, like, they're looking they, the pride doesn't get to them, right? They're looking at someone lower ranking and recognizing they've seen more action than I have. I'm going to ask them questions, and I'm going to go to them. And, you know, I respected that a lot more. And I think that story is an example of that, like you, you knew better. And you knew that that was risky. But the arrogance of the NCO, you know, he just, oh, it's it's my role. So just respect my role and you don't get to overstep, but this is like a serious thing, this is actually like life or death type of stuff, this isn't a contest, it's absolutely a very valid point that you were making, I saw

Keith McKeever 40:15

a lot of that, you know, definitely makes a good leader, I saw a lot of that, from good leaders. Throughout my career to especially in security forces is Scott Air Force Base, where I was stationed my second base, we had Guard and Reserve there, and they would augment our forces, I saw a lot of that, you know, I actually saw a lot of good examples, there were the senior NCOs that were active duty, only had certain experience, but some of the civilian cops that worked there were some of the reserve guys were civilian cops on the outside. And, and they understood that a lot of those guys had very unique skills, they were seeing a lot more police action, they had a lot more hands on training. And they really utilize that they kind of figured out what everybody's skill set was because, you know, you can have an Airman First Class or senior airman, it's been, you know, I can be 35 years old, and then a civilian police officer for 15 years. You know, and, and the wealth of knowledge that they have, can really bring a lot to the, to the career field, instead of just dismissing them. As you know, if they're just an ether, you know, it'll be no big deal. You know, it's like, well, you know, they have unique, unique skills. So, but let's, let's get, let's get into the book here, cuz I have I want to take a section by section or part as you put it in there. And I kind of just want to get your thoughts on a couple of different sections, because I think they're really unique for certain reasons. But in part one, you have functioning but not fine. And I guess my thoughts on that, and then I'll let you kind of take it away with with what your thoughts are, cuz I don't want to give away the whole book, I kind of pick some sections. Uh, I know for me personally, and I know for a lot of people out there, you know, the world seems like it's functioning fine. Like, you've got everything going on. You know, you're, you're killing it in your job, you're doing this, you're doing that, but at the same time, like, what people don't see is, is behind the scenes. You have thoughts you have some people have nightmares, I'm fortunate enough that I don't really have nightmares, but you just never know when that trigger could could be. But it looks like your whole worlds together. I think a lot of times people look at people with PTSD is their whole world is falling apart. They're aggressive, they're violent, they're beating people, they're, they've got substance abuse issues, and it's not really the case. And that, like, really hit home for me, because I know if I'm kind of that same way, same way, sometimes, well, some I'm functioning fine. Sometimes I'm functioning, but I'm not fine. So what's what's your thoughts? You know, if you can elaborate on on that?

Elisa Escalante 42:42

Yeah, it's, that is one of my favorite chapters, I think that I wrote because I, I just had a lot of frustration with the whole stigma that, you know, like you said, if you have a job, you have a family, things from the outside seem to be, you know, running smooth for them. So therefore, they're fine. You know, they're all right. They're not mentally ill. And I'm just saying that's not true. And that's actually what inspired me to name my blog, what I what I did with my blog is called functionally mental, it for that very reason. And I like to go into how the majority of us that are mentally ill, like a large percentage are actually working and appear to be fine. And no one would even know, like, any better. Because it's a it's an invisible wound, you know, it's mental illness. So, from the outside looking in everything, okay. And the issue with that stigma is it's you validate, like a lot of people's mental illnesses and experiences. You know, I've personally dealt with that. I remember quite a few times where I came back from my deployment. And I kind of hinted that there was some issues going on to co workers and friends and it was always kind of met with the whole Oh, but you're fine. You know, you're you, you're successful. You did this, you did that you're fine. You know that that got thrown at me quite a bit. And it almost makes you insane sometimes, because you start to wonder, like, am I fine? I'm dealing with all these symptoms. I'm dealing with this when I get home from work, you know, crying spells, you know, irritability, anxiousness, nightmares, whatever else is going on. And yet, everyone in the world is telling me I'm fine because I got a job. You know, I'm just going through the motions, you know, and, again, the stigma of mental illness. The old school stigma is, if you're mentally ill, you know, or you're locked up in a psych ward or something right. But that's that's not really the case. That's why outpatient exists like in the first place. The majority of us we we could be many until the ill and suffering, but but at the same time doing what we have to do to get by like in society. And I'm just cautioning, you know, cautioning people against the whole, you know, just just don't assume. Don't assume anything. You know, you could see people, you could think they look fine, but you don't actually know what they're suffering through. I mean, I guess Yeah, that's what that chapter is really?

Keith McKeever 45:26

Yeah, there's a, I think it's easy to look at somebody who has all their stuff together and just think that they're fine. You know, oh, look, you know, they've they've been in business this long, they've got this much success, the married you got kids, like, everything looks perfect. Well, how many people do you really think on your Facebook friends feed, or Instagram feed that looks like their world is perfect. You know, it's not whether or not they have mental health issues or not, your life is not perfect. You know, take, you know, the people who are, you know, take all that time to post whatever pictures, whatever their thing is on Instagram, right? All that time to find the location and the posing, and the photographer to do all that. That's a lot of stress. There's a lot of stuff like, they're, they're balancing a lot just to make that happen, like, and so you got to look past what you see. And think, you know, they may not be fine. And the reason I wanted to bring that up, because I think it hits home for a lot of people. But I think it's an awesome opportunity to to have a conversation, you know, with in the veteran community, that people can look like they're functioning, but they're not the functioning, they're not fine. And that is why we need to check in on our battle buddies. Yes, even the ones that seem like they're fine. If somebody goes through something traumatic, and you see it, and he, they lose somebody close to home, or you know, something's going on in their life, that shouldn't be the only time you reach out to him. You know, not preaching to myself here, right? I've been a guy that will reach out to some battle buddies, when I know they're struggling, and they got some things going on, and check on him every now and then. But if I'm checking on once every five years, when something bad happens, listen, I'm gonna call myself out on this, I got to do a better job as well. We all have to do a better job. You know, reach out to those people you have contact with. I don't even care if you put it in your schedule, right? Pick 10 of your closest battle buddies. And every week you call different one, at least you're contacting that same person once every 10 weeks, or 12 weeks or four weeks. I don't care. You know, they say it on vet TV, and I love it at the end of a lot of their shows, you know, pick up the phone and text somebody call somebody, check on your battle buddies. You know, and I got to challenge myself to the same way. You know, I know life gets in the way crazy things go on this, you know, but you got to find a way to like check on some people every now and then. I feel like I myself like in some ways clubhouse we met on clubhouse. You know, there's a lot of veteran groups, a lot of vets talking on clubhouse. And I think that's another way that that those conversations are happening. We're at least having conversations we at least know that. Oh, hey, look, someone so jumped in. Oh, man, I haven't talked to them in a few weeks. It's glad to know that they're still okay. They're still doing fine. They're still here. They're talking with us. At least they're checking into the community, if you will, the veteran community in some way shape or form.

Elisa Escalante 48:24

clubhouse has been so good for veterans.

Keith McKeever 48:27

Yeah, I know. I won't go into the stories. But I, you know, I pinged you in some rooms. I'm sure you've been paying into like 10 million others. He's having like a breakdown, and they've got serious things going on in their life. And they just need they just need somebody. You know, I know the last time I did I pinged you in there. They needed some, like VSO type services as well. So I pinged Jane in there. And both of you eventually got in there and got the person at the help needed, kind of pointing in the right direction, which is, at the end of the day is we should be doing as a veteran community. Yeah, that's right. People making sure that they're fine and getting the work getting what they need. So they can get from not fine to functioning and fine.

Elisa Escalante 49:12

Yeah, and peer to peer support is so beneficial. And on the topic, too, by the way, so many people have told me, Well, they seem fine, because they're working like 60 plus hours a week. And I just have to say that is not a good sign. I know a lot of people, especially in America, we see that as a good sign if you're excessively working. But it's actually the opposite. I mean, you know, I had a whole chat room on avoidance and a very common tactic for emotional avoidance is excessive work. So I just want to reiterate, that does not mean someone is fine, because they're obsessively working 60 plus hours a week, and that means they're functional, therefore, they're fine, you know, again, I think, yeah, well, that's,

Keith McKeever 50:03

that's one of the reasons I mean, I thought they were important chapters and are important parts, in the chapters in the parks, whatever, however you want to call it. Because a lot of these spoke to me, because I'm the same way. I'm the kind of person that works my butt off in business. I'm a full time student. I've achieved industry awards locally, about two years ago. And sometimes when I look at it on the wall, now, I look at it and I'm, I'm sad. I shouldn't be, you know. It was one of those awards that there's only one per year in my local association or 750 people and I was able to, you know, didn't even see it coming. And I was, you know, I'm proud of it. Because I put in the work. What was the cost? And that's what I look at. And I'm like, wow, you know, what it was his realtor of the year. And I look at the names of the people on there, and mad respect for all those people in my industry, they have earned it. And they felt honored enough to bestow that upon me. And that's great. And I'm proud to have been realtor of the year 2019. But I look at it, and I'm like, wow, what did it cost me? It cost me time with my family. It cost me a lot of work. Why did I get it? Well, it wasn't just for the number of houses I sell. It's for volunteering. Because I'm sitting on 567 different committees a year at the local level, and the board of directors and all these other things and volunteer stuff. And I'm that kind of person, leads us right into the next chapter I was talking about with superhuman. But I just work, it's work. It's volunteering, it's this, it's taking care of my family. It's all these different things like nonstop, I don't, I don't stop, I get in my office at eight o'clock in the morning. Sometimes I'm here at midnight. Sometimes I don't, sometimes I'll leave my office at eight. Sometimes, honestly, I'll quit aka at work at four or five. But I'll still sit in my office and alienate myself in play video games. And as I read through those two parts, because I put both them in there, superhuman and alienation, I realized that I'm definitely not alone. And I realized that there was some reasons there that I didn't realize for years, until this last year, and especially reading your book, and it was like aha moment, like a light bulb going off. Like, wow, that's totally me. Still living, and I know there's other people and in all kinds of just fits. Because we're gonna talk about those in that order functioning, but not fine, superhuman and alienation. Because I know, like, all of those make it look like you're successful, that you're functioning, and fine. So what are your thoughts on I guess, the superhuman thing and alienation thing? Because I know those are extremely common.

Elisa Escalante 52:52

Yeah. Absolutely. It's funny, I was told by a colleague, even when I came back home from the deployment, like, wow, you're the first person I've seen come back home, and you're exactly the same. You know, that that was the observation. And at the time, I took it as a compliment. So I was thinking, oh, you know, whatever. I'm, I got through it, you know, I'm strong, blah, blah, blah, unchanged. But it was really not the case. It was an act. And I was, I don't know if I should be ashamed or proud of the fact that I acted so well that no one knew that I was traumatized. Even I didn't know it at the time. But it was just, like I said, it was that facade, it was that. And it's feeding into the stigma, we were talking about the beginning of the podcast, like, you know, don't don't let them see what's really going on with you. And the military teacher very well, because we're expected to be very stoic, and to just keep going on with this mission. And you know, all the work that goes with it and being functional, you're supposed to do, and we become proud of that. And it's really not healthy in any way, shape, or form, emotionally, mentally, physically. And that's why I wrote superhuman because I'm trying to explain to veterans, you know, who got out, but we're still in that mode, that military mode that this isn't healthy. This was never healthy. It's something that we were indoctrinated into, because we needed it for the military. But now that we're out, we have to understand, it's gonna wear and tear on us really fast. And burnout is a thing. And no matter how much you want to be in, no matter how well trained you are, you're human. And there are real consequences to the pace that you're trying to keep up. And I hope that that point, you know, I was able to make that point in that chapter.

Keith McKeever 54:57

It really spoke to me because, you know, I think burnout is very real, you know, when you it's not just like one thing, it's just like everything, you know, like myself personally had to kind of bring it back to that. But I just realized over this last year, that I gotta take some more time for quality of life for myself, I got to get rid of stress, because I realized what stress was starting to do to my body, not just my mind, but my body. And I started taking a look at okay, what kind of quality of life things can I do? Right, and we just got back from family vacation, the longest vacation my family's ever taken, it was awesome, it was wonderful, I came back actually recharged and ready to go. Like, it's amazing what just a vacation does, right? Like, take the time in, the best thing we did is we did all the dishes, all the laundry, before we left, we left everything clean. So we didn't come back to like, you know, a little bit, because I've got two kids, you know, tons of laundry. So it's like, everything was caught up ready to go, we came back home, it was clean, it was ready to go, just get right back into life. Right? Not like you got to wash all the clothes from vacation. All at once, you know, all that work, it actually comes from coming back from vacation, back, put the bags away and all that stuff. But like quality of life and just being way different environment not working, I'm fortunate enough to have a business partner that was able to cover things for me, all I really had to do is check my emails, you know, 20 minutes a day, 30 minutes a day, the rest of the day was with my family, going to museums, you know, going on trips hanging out with family, because you know, a lot of family where we went to and it was amazing. Like what that what that kind of does, and it reiterates why you got to stop being superhuman. You can't just put everything on your shoulders. Because other people can help you just ask for the help, right? Take those two or three things that somebody else can honestly do and delegate that to somebody or get rid of them. I did that. But a month ago, I was another thing I was involved in HOA President, by the way, never do that. Ever get involved in your HOA? You know, I had a great time. And I've learned a lot over the last years and wonderful neighbors. So it's not not that bad. But it's been president for six years, I had enough. And it was putting stress on me. I was so burnt out at that job. I had to give it up. And I gave the board an ultimatum. I said somebody takes my job. Or I don't seek re election as regular board member. Like I'm done. Like I'm walking away. Like I will give you all the records and everything in two weeks. Like that's the point I was at because I was like, I don't care. I'll take two more weeks of work and get everything put together. But something has to come off my plate. I can't keep doing this anymore.

Elisa Escalante 57:42

Yeah. Oh, that's good. I'm proud of you. Because well,

Keith McKeever 57:45

that's you know, and I say that, not to kind of to my own horn, but like so other people in that boat, like, just get rid of that shit. Whatever's on your plate that you really like or burn out on or you're starting to feel burned out on, get rid of it. Don't get like a second hot potato off.

Elisa Escalante 58:04

Turn to especially veterans because, like what we've been talking about, we're taught to be so mission orientated, that we don't know how to see the value in time off. And that's something I'm thinking more about, you know, I've been thinking more about lately, since I resigned from the VA, like, there's just as much value in our days off as there is in the days we're working. But we don't ever see it that way. You know, there's been so many times I had days off and I'm just stir crazy. Like, oh, I need to work I need to do something, I'm wasting my time. And no, it's not a waste of time. days off serve a very important purpose. And unless we start seeing it that way, we're always going to be work obsessed. And then the burnouts gonna happen. So that's what I encourage for people, you know, especially if you're a veteran, and you're still in that military mode, superhuman mode. Like you eventually hoping you learn to see the value like in your days. Oh, yeah. And

Keith McKeever 59:05

so why because I'm just now you know, it's been 10 years since I got out and I'm just now kind of seeing that right like what what am I doing for my quality of life for you know, to unwind and just like disconnect from certain things. You know, another thing that even helped on vacation my wife flat out told me we got I don't know, I don't know if this is a veteran thing or just me. But she flat out told me before we left she goes look we're going for X amount of days. You will not micromanage everything we do. I was the kind of guy look look, go on a trip. We went to Denver and we drove about 1314 hours we split it up we stayed about halfway. I'm the kind of person that will look at the number of miles the speed limit and determine Okay, we're gonna stop every hour and a half to let the kids go to the bathroom stretch will be at the restaurant for 15 minutes we'll be at this particular restaurant, but this I would literally micromanage everything down to the minute there are five Minutes like, and she flat out, told me she was, we're just going to wing it. Here's a list of things that we can do when we're in town, there's some family we're going to catch up with. And we're just going to go, the only thing she let me do was booked the hotel room on the way there. So we know exactly where we're spending the night. And that was it. And it was really, really hard. The whole trip to wake up in the morning and not be like, well, let's roll out of the out door at 10 o'clock. It's a 35 minute drive across town, and we can check in by you know, you know, it that was really, really hard for me to do valuable intervention for you. Extremely valuable. And, and, and so thank you to my wife, she's probably upstairs upstairs watching us as we record it. But while it was hard to do, it was actually kind of like, empowering to just be like, we're just gonna go with the flow. Live. I didn't still didn't master it, right? Like, there were still days in the morning where everybody's like, sleeping in, and I'm just like, I got all this energy in the world, like, oh, well, what are we, you know, what are we going to do today? I don't know, we'll just go pick a place on the list and go do it. You know, but like I was, I was out of bed shower, ready to go like every morning, like, well before everybody else because I was excited. And that was another thing that like, just was weird to me, like just being that excited about a trip and going and doing things and that quality of life. And it was just, like, sit invigorating. Like, it's wild. And and I felt like, you know, being the superhuman for so many years. That felt good. It really felt good. You know, and I hate to dive so much into myself, but if it helps somebody realize, like, just stop what you're doing. Just take a frickin vacation, right? I don't care if it's three days, go somewhere, shut off your phone, check away from work, go with your family. Don't don't even have any plans, book, the hotel room and just find something to do. Go hiking, go to Museum, go to an art festival, whatever, just go sit on a park bench, all three days. Whatever works for you just just go do something.

Elisa Escalante 1:02:11

Oh, that control. Like, for real? Everyone thinks I've been a little crazy lately. And what I mean by that is, I resigned in February from the VA. And you know, it's just now like tomorrow, I start this new job. So I've had about what, five months of being unemployed and just focusing on promoting the book. And you know, a lot of people are kind of looking at me like, What are you doing, Lisa, they don't realize this is this was on purpose, this break was on purpose. And the whole waking up without a plan. Some days was actually on purpose. For me, I was really challenging myself to like embrace, you know, the break the freedom, the not knowing what the future was going to be the lack of control. And anytime I have fear in that I just kept challenging myself to let go of that need to have have a plan right away. And so, like this, some people thought I was a little crazy, I would say because it wasn't like me to ever do anything like that. But it was exactly what I needed

Keith McKeever 1:03:18

was not like you because you were conditioned for so many years to act like a robot like a superhuman. And you got to break it, I think it was about three quarters of the way the through the book you you mentioned, maybe it wasn't part three. And part two, I don't remember. But there's a part in there where you kind of talk about that, like you go to actually I think was culture shock. That was the other one I had on here, where you go to basic training. And you're indoctrinated into the military customs and courtesies and all this stuff like you're trained to fit into the culture. But when you get out all they do, and your your situation is similar to mine, right? Create a resume, and, and some classes on budgeting. And that's basically it. Like two weeks of nonsense death by PowerPoint, to get out of the military. Where it took you when I was six and a half weeks Air Force basic training. I know army's longer in the Marine Corps like 13 and a half weeks or something. But you have weeks and weeks where every moment your life is managed. You have specific things to do. You completely indoctrinate yourself into that culture. And the transition program is still in that culture. It's still it, we're starting at nine o'clock. And it's not like civilian meetings, which a nine o'clock meeting starts at 915. Like, you know, they're still nine o'clock meeting so you better be in your seat at 845 Because we're starting at 50 Yeah, you know, there's there's no because it's millets. I can't remember well, I guess it was a civilian that ran my I don't know who's running all of them, but you're still in that culture. You're still on that base. My personal thought is those transition programs should be at strange hours outside the duty day, maybe even on weekends. Like, change up the culture, get them off base, having a hotel, have people show up, not me, I came, I probably went uniform, I don't know if we had to go in civilian clothes, but they people show up in business casual at a hotel off base on a weekend and wipe the whole damn thing clean of anything military.

Elisa Escalante 1:05:36

There's nothing more you say you

Keith McKeever 1:05:38

start at nine o'clock, specifically Start the fucking program at 915. started late, because when you get into the civilian boardroom, it's gonna be the same way, you're gonna have people coming in late, you're gonna be on their cell phones are gonna be slouching back in the chair. And they should be pointing people in there to do some of that stuff. Right to like, let people know, like, the outside world is not what you're used to, whether it be four years or 20. And for those that did 20, and are in Ei, e nine range, ie seven, you know, or the colonels and generals when they're getting out like they're really going to be in for a culture shock.

Elisa Escalante 1:06:16

Oh my gosh, like,

Keith McKeever 1:06:18

it's got to be insane. I mean, I was only in for five and a half years. And when I still got out, like, obviously, there's a lot of things. There's still I kind of did for Well, still doing 10 years later. And you know that that's got to change that, that that was another part. In part two that really spoke to me. Because I think, because I've talked about transition a lot in culture shock when you kind of brought it right back around to getting out. That's, that's huge. So I'll stop speaking on it, what's what are your thoughts on how things are done and the culture shock? Because there was an awful part?

Elisa Escalante 1:06:54

I mean, I can't I just want to say I can't even fathom how some people do 20 plus years first. Like imagine they they've been in it the longest, and then they're getting out and dealing with the changes that already already know how that transition feels. So that and it's kind of scary to me, but, um, no, nothing, nothing can really prepare us psychologically, for that transition, I believe. And it's just kind of scary. Like I, I reflect back, and anyone that I know that some listing there, it's like, I'm proud of them, but there's like this pain, I can't help but feel this pain in my heart, you know, just knowing what they're probably gonna have to go through. Then knowing anyone who's in there about to get out, I feel that same. You know, in my heart, like, oh, man, there abouts get out. And it's, it's, but it's just something you can't really explain to someone they go through. I was just, you know, I had a plan. There's a lot of veterans that have plans, you know, they get out and it sounds foolproof, and it sounds like it's gonna work out. But again, psychologically, nothing really can prepare us for just how dramatically different civilian lifestyle is, and the disconnect that we're going to feel because of it, because we're still militarized. We're still, you know, think about however many years it took for us to be that military person, that we became that that's a lot of undoing. And people don't, you know, give cheetah cat, like, people don't give it the credit that it deserves. Paying attention to that they think, Oh, you're out now, you know, you could just switch? No, we're psychologically not out. You know, we're still in that mindset and that mentality, it's a whole different world that we got accustomed to the civilian world is nothing like it. And yes, we were civilians before we were in the military, doesn't matter. We got conditioned to the military. And once there is a

Keith McKeever 1:09:13

different view to because if we talk lifers, 20 years, whatever. Most of them probably went in 18, maybe 22. You know, they got their degree with the officer out. But your first 18 years of your life, your child, you have virtually no responsibilities until your say maybe 1415 start getting part time jobs mowing the lawn for the neighbor, you know, or flipping burgers at McDonald's. And so, by the time you're 18, what do you really know about life? Right? You grown up life and paying bills and responsibilities and having kids jobs, careers and all this. You don't know any of that resumes. Or you even hinted in your book that you know, your first resume through that transition program was military bullet points thought was probably 90% of our

Elisa Escalante 1:10:00

Two and a half pages two and a half page, long as bullet styled resume. It was horrible.

Keith McKeever 1:10:09

A bunch of abbreviations and you're definitely not alone on that. And mine was probably pretty much the same. But, you know, people I can't remember the words used in the book, but she kind of talked about like, civilians just saying, well, you're out of the military or now you're not doing that anymore. Just just change. Like, just, you know, just drop it. You know, you're in civilian world, you got to play by those rules. Well, it's hard to do when you've been like basic training, every, every second of your day is dictated for you. Yeah, right. If you think back, like, what are you doing, you're in your downtime in basic training. You don't have any, because you're clipping strings on your uniform or polishing your boots, or shoes, but my age me a little bit Polish into boots, but so a lot of time doing it. The boots, the shoes, you know, coping uniforms, making sure there's two finger links between the hangers in the closet in the in the locker there, you know, is my sheets flat, like every second you're busy? Yeah. And that's where probably where the superhuman kind of comes in. You're trained to operate on very little sleep, everything needs to be perfect. You're going to handle everything yourself, because you might get a little help here and there. But you know, but that's where they build that culture. And they build it over a few weeks. And it's reinforced over four years. 10 years, 20 years. You can't get rid of that. My stepfather has been out of the military for 50 years, he's a Vietnam vet. There's still certain things he does if I sat and watched him long enough, I could probably an hour pick out a half dozen things that he does that I know are holdovers from his time in the military. So you don't you don't get rid of it. It's a lifetime thing. You just have to learn how to adapt certain things, and how to stop certain things. And there's I don't know that there's a right way or wrong way. But what's, what's your take on that?

Elisa Escalante 1:12:05

Well, like a trimmer with chapter was where a Oh, is adjustment not readjustment? Um, you know, talking about how read the concept of readjustment is kind of ridiculous, in my opinion. And I know, I'll offend people when I say that, because breached right readjustment, no, you can't readjust back to your old self after going through military training, you know, the whatever job that you're placed in, and if you've deployed, like even more, so there's no readjusting. It's actually a bunch of adjustments that you're going through over time, very dramatic adjustments. That is, it's actually difficult psychologically, to go through that. And, you know, we're just not thinking of it that way. Because we're military members, and it becomes our norm. But, you know, those things stick those experiences stay with us. And, you know, upon getting out like, so they don't just, you don't just go away, but but I talked about all the different phases that we may go through in the military. And I'm reiterating that, hey, the point is not to fight these things. When you get out and you become a civilian. The point is, just to recognize it for what it is, you went through all these adjustments, and now you're going to have to go through even more adjustments after you get out. I'm trying to combat the shame of that. Because I've noticed a lot of us feel like, once we get out, we're going to be able to adapt easily. You know, or at least that's what we hope. And then there's so many veterans I've worked with. And I went through this myself, where we're kind of ashamed, because we didn't adapt as well as we thought we would, you know, because we're thinking, oh, you know, we did all this stuff in the military, you know, we, we, you know, we know how to work hard, we know how to get through any adapt, overcome, you know, like, Clint, like, Clint Eastwood says and are very grid. But then this is a whole different world and culture. So it's not going to be the same type of adjustment, or adaptation, it's going to be that the personality we've developed, and the person we became, doesn't match into this new culture in this new civilian environment. And now we're going to have to undo these habits that were so good for us in the DOD. But now they're actually hindering us in the civilian world, and they're causing these clashes. And we're getting in arguments with our co workers, civilian co workers, and maybe our family and everything, because we're so set on this way. It worked for us so well, but now we're out and no one wants to deal with that. No one wants to deal with what we've become. Yeah, as military members,

Keith McKeever 1:14:53

maybe because for us, it's such a unique experience because it's our experience. We lived it. We Learn it, those skills, tasks, whatever the way to live. But we have to keep in mind that we're very, very, very small percentage of the population, roughly 1% of what everybody keeps saying. And so everyone was everybody you see on the street is a civilian, they have no clue what you go to through, you have no clue what the culture really is in the military. I mean, you're, you're an Air Force of it, how many times is somebody come up to you when they find out your Air Force? And that's what plane you flew? Yeah. My response is always I, I don't file planes. You know, it was it was me sitting in the truck garden and make sure nobody did anything stupid. You know, so that the maintainers could keep it fixed and get flying. You know, really, the flying jobs in the Air Force are relatively small percentage of the Air Force. Very, very small. And, you know, or you walk around in your uniform, I don't know how to do it. Well, it's probably worse now with the multi cam, but, you know, the AV use that we were wearing, you know, while the army had AC use at the same time, you know, so it's probably about the same, I guess, you know, you always get called soldier, everybody's a soldier to civilians. It doesn't matter if you've got a Marine Corps uniform on or Navy uniform, like they're asked, they're like, so drastically different. Right? I mean, marines can blend in anything, we could just build it into a rock piles. pile of rocks, like the army. And the Navy could just get lost in the water with their blue uniforms. You know, it's just such a unique experience, but civilians just, they just don't know and understand. Like, they have no clue what the culture is. Or we go through what we do, or perfect example, your college professor, you know, that you talk about in the book and how she thought everybody had the same job. Talk about big Garbrandt. You know, like, you know, thinking everybody did one particular job in here from like, what, what job look her in this world? Does everybody do the same job? You think everybody at Caterpillar tractors, puts tires on things? Because if they did, who's running things, who's one of the machines who's who's putting the buckets on the front, you know, like, I will be doing the same damn job. Like, that's just ridiculous. It was funny reading that, by the way.

Elisa Escalante 1:17:21

looked at us, because we're just sitting straight and just glaring at her PowerPoint. And she was so scared of us. She was so hatred as I was reading. Why are you guys looking at me like this, that military discipline we had listening to? Sure. And we're all just sitting up, you know, like, we're in boot camp. And she like, like, she legit ended class early sometimes because it scared her so much. And she just had, and then there's those few civilian students sprinkling it on base to join us, but they're, like, half passed out at their desks. The rest of us have gelei? Yes,

Keith McKeever 1:17:58

it's definitely a different world. I mean, I didn't take a couple college classes when I was in. But being in college, the last couple years, there's been times Well, not this last year and a half, I guess. But before that for about a year and a half before that, you know, actually going to classes at a local junior college. Now we have a lot of military presence here. But I was usually clearly 10 years older than everybody else in the room. And it was funny as I was reading it, because I was on thinking back to some of these classes. And I'm like, I always sat in front. I was always, always front center, close to the professor where I could ask questions, I could hear clearly what he was saying. Because you know, bad hearing and I want to be able to see the board clearly hear clearly, him be able to hear me if I have a question. Make it known that I'm in the class. And as I'm reading it, and I'm just like, Yeah, I know. That was me, even if it was death by PowerPoint. Like I was always paying attention to what's going on trying to take notes, trying to be the best student I could. And I look around and there's people in the back with their feet propped up and people that are sleeping some people get on leave class early, somewhat dude in the back eating a bag of potato chips, and the professor just doesn't care. Yes. Well, no wonder they liked me when I talked to him afterwards because I was asking questions. I was following up with stuff. You know, what I didn't know about everybody else had just been there out of their interested. Wow. Yeah, I was like, wow, I got a I got a captive audience here. I got 50 people in this room and what I was actually interested in what I'm saying. Yeah, I'm only interested because I just won't pass the class. You know, but ya know, it was very, very interesting reading that and humorous almost, because I was just mad, you know, thinking of my experiences there. So the last part we'll move on to part three now. And this This was an interesting one. You had it. I think it was titled I don't want to live anymore. Where you talk about you know, people seeking help. And I thought was really interesting how you kind of point this out, you know, are used like Terminator how you I guess I wrote it down. Do you want to die? Or do you want to live with less pain? Something like that, that you put in the book? So, you know, that's probably where the trigger warning comes in here. You know, what, what did you see as a social worker? Because I found that really, really interesting. Because I think it's a very, to the point question, to ask somebody.

Elisa Escalante 1:20:20

Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's, it's also mental health training, we get comfortable, very early, learning how to ask hard questions, especially if we become a clinician, you know, there's no more beating around the bush. With that topic, we just directly ask it. And that that question in particular, is important to me. Because it's, it's given me the answer that I really need, I need to see is there still hope, you know, with this person, and the majority of people don't want to die, they, you know, they want to live with less pain. And that's where I clarify that, like, Okay, you want to live with less pain? And now we have to figure out how, how can we do this for you? How can you do this for yourself? How can you get past this hopeless moment, so that, you know, you can restore that hope again, and, you know, we got to safety planet, we got to action planet. And it's just all part of the difficult conversations that are necessary when someone is experiencing tidal ideation. You know, fortunately, I had to help hospitalized a lot of people when I was in the military. But fortunately, when I was working for the VA, I did not have to hospitalized any of my clients. I got clients that went out of inpatient, because they were suicidal, and then saw me for outpatient. So I received clients that were just getting out impatient. And they still needed to work on those ideations because they were there, and I help them restore hope. But fortunately, none of my clients, I didn't have to hospitalize any of them. And we were able to work through those suicidal ideations that they had. And, you know, sometimes a part of that was medication, too. And the psychiatrist did an incredible job, and I liked working in conjunction with them. And it's just, it's a lot, you know, it takes a lot to do that type of work. It's delicate, it's intricate. And I caution people against sweeping it under the rug, because there, there are some people that are so scared to talk about suicide, that they're not asking those important questions. And just, you know, as a clinician, you have to go there with people, you have to go deep enough to know, Where's this coming from? What can we do to try to pull you out of this? You know, because if you just try to ignore it, or you try to say, no, no, you're not suicidal, you'll be okay. That's not gonna fix the problem. You know, what can we do to get you from being someone that's thinking about harming themselves to someone that does not want that anymore. So I take it very seriously. Like I wrote in the book, you know, a client of ours did commit suicide when I was in Afghanistan, and, you know, that's a moral injury that will stick with me forever. So I take it even more seriously now. And I'm just glad that this new job that I have, it's research and it's suicide, it's for suicide prevention, it's researching air for suicides, it's, you know, looking at the themes that led up to the suicide. And I just think, this, this is great. You know, I've worked with this in the military, I've worked with it for the VA. And now I get to work in the research side of things and, and, you know, like, focus more on the suicide prevention.

Keith McKeever 1:23:57

This is a real problem, walking away to hear you know, what you can tell me about the research, you know, as all the future conversations will have on clubhouse or whatever, but, you know, my goal with this podcast is, is not specifically suicide. But I noticed that a lot of people would put on in Facebook groups, all the issues that they're they're dealing with, sometimes it leads to suicide, sometimes it doesn't, but it was really screaming out to me, what I noticed was people were having problems and there's not a way to fix the actual problem. Right? I'm sure you had, you know, the, a wide range of issues that you're dealing with financial issues, PTSD, substance abuse, I mean, relationships, you know, all these different things, right, that could lead somebody down the rabbit hole of, you know, spiraling to the permanent solution to a temporary problem. But where's the fix to the problem? And so that's what my thoughts were on the battle buddy podcast is it's critic podcast, let's talk about certain things. And you know, like how having you on here, right? We're talking about it, we're also promoting your book, which is also another tool, another resource to help people get out of things. But you know, my goal is always to have like that that actionable thing, as well to pull something out that's actionable. And so that's a very direct question that you ask somebody, you know, are basically Are you suicidal? Or you just want to live with less pain? So the actionable question I've got for you to follow up on this, those of us that are not in the mental health profession, whether we run into somebody a clubhouse, or you run into him on the street, if there appears to be some sort of a problem, where we need to ask some sort of question like that, as soon as you know, somebody that you kind of know, at least a little bit, how should somebody asked that question?

Elisa Escalante 1:25:45

Oh, yeah, I should say, that's a question specifically for clinical work. But really, if you know someone in their, you know, talking about being suicidal or having ideation, it's, I'm always going to encourage you get them to help, that you try your best to get them to help and it's still a scary thing. You know, this is a question that comes up a lot, like, what do I do if someone's suicidal, I have no idea. And remember your role, like, if you're their family member, you're their family member, if you're, if you're their friend, you're their friend, just be that don't don't think that you have to be become a therapist, just know, be their friend, get them to get them to help be their family member, get them to the professional, and you know, if that means I'll walk with you to the clinic, great. That means, you know, if you're far away from them, that means I'll text you every so many hours. And you know, make sure that you get that help. That's great. You know, in the military, it was great to when I saw the first surgeons that were willing to tell them, hey, you can go to mental health and get help, I'll walk you to the clinic, you know, so just remember, whatever your role is, that's your role, don't burden yourself with extra roles. And, you know, help them get to that resource that they need. And, you know, be that person that, you know, they know, they can talk to judgment free, until they get handed off to the professional.

Keith McKeever 1:27:16

So it would it be better to just say, if you know, somebody might be having a hard time just, you know, say something like, Hey, I see you might be struggling Is there any way I can help with maybe a more appropriate, you know, non social worker, psychiatrist, you know, kind of way of handling things, and then you know, if they say that they, you know, need some help or kind of give you something, then you can kind of go off that, like, I've got the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline, which is 800-273-8255 scrolling at the bottom here, if anybody happens to need it, but you know, at the pointing towards those resources, or nonprofits like HC strong as a nonprofit, I know of where they give some free counseling, people need nit, and all kinds of different things. So that is that probably the best way to handle things just kind of ask if there's anything you can help them with.

Elisa Escalante 1:28:05

Yeah, point them to whatever resources that you know about, validate whatever it is, versus trying to sweep it under the rug. And, you know, just letting them know that, you know, being an empathetic listener is huge. And so keep in mind, a lot of people are going to be resistant. And that's normal, some people could be resistant to help for years and years. But they, you know, they don't really forget, who was the empathetic listener, for them. And those are the people that they're, they tend to go back to when they have questions or concerns. And, you know, it just, it builds on itself. Those types of things, you know, they, they may or may not get help when they need it. But they remember, like, who was there and who was validating them and being empathetic in their time of need. And when you build that trust with someone, they're likely to go to you again, you know, well, when they need something, and, you know, just, we can't make people get treatment, but we could certainly, like, give those nice, subtle reminders every now and then, like, hey, don't forget, you know, there's these resources, when you're ready, you know, if you're ready. And if, you know, a lot of veterans now are opening nonprofits to help other veterans or, you know, on clubhouse and playing a good peer to peer role. You know, that's what the unseen is about, like for my show on clubhouse it's, it's peer to peer more than anything else. I I want us to help each other. I want the, you know, I don't know everything. You know, I'm I specialize in mental health, but every time we have a chat room, there's so many veterans and they have a wealth of knowledge that they can share with other veterans and we all get to leave that chat, knowing more about, you know, what's available to us.

Keith McKeever 1:29:54

Oh, that's the beauty of those chats because, you know, you get a certain number of people in there and somebody Sometimes people don't break down. But sometimes you get somebody that breaks down and, and needs a little bit of help. And then they kind of start telling their story. And the beautiful thing that I've noticed is that maybe you know, somebody or LG does or I know somebody that might be able to help on what we do we start paying them into the room, or you know, it just got your instagram or twitter connected, oops, just lost her there for segments you should see she goes back. But as I was saying, you know, in these rooms, we use clubhouse rooms, you have an opportunity to just kind of kind of connect people and kind of point them in the right direction and get certain people pinged in there. Or, you know, point in the right direction with a DM you know, I've done that a few times, trying to, you know, put somebody in the right direction, so you gotta go. Gotta go get those resources here. And we'll see if Lisa comes back I had the final three questions for maybe she's trying to avoid avoid them go to take a real quick break here. All right, I don't know where we're at least a winch now respond to my messages, she had an internet connection issue. So we're gonna go ahead and wrap this up unless she pops back up here next couple of seconds. But thanks for tuning in. Hope you've really enjoyed this episode. You really need to connect with Elisa. Once against at least Escalante calm, you can go check out her book, it's available on Amazon. Take it for me. It's hard to put in words with it with this book, really, you know, really does, it's so simple and easy to read. None of the chapters are super long. It's something that you can digest. You know, you could read a chapter every morning with breakfast. It's it's just way too easy to kind of read through this book. And it puts it in such a unique perspective. That's not like I said earlier in the show, not super clinical, you know, in a way, it's from her perspective, her thoughts easy to digest. And I think it's something that every veteran should read. It is on my book list on battle buddy podcast.net. It's, it's up there, because I've read it. I don't put anything up there unless I have read it. And, and know the author, because I feel that it's valuable and important. So that's, that's why it's on there. That's why I had Lisa come on the podcast, because she's been an incredible resource on clubhouse. Incredible friend, credible battle buddy. I love the fact that I've connected with her and what she's trying to do, because it just fits with what a lot of us are trying to do with a veteran community. And that's bring more awareness to mental health, more awareness to suicide problem, but most importantly, trying to find ways to fix. In this, I think her book gives us a little bit of an insight. Working people can kind of understand, and I think understanding open up eyes is the first step in kind of getting on that path to healing, to understanding what your problems and issues are, and then going to counseling and figure out ways to get past those. You're never going to end triggers, you're never going to end PTSD, you're never you know, you're never going to be over it. You're never going to be healed. But you can't try and find ways to mitigate the impacts of triggers. And to get past certain things to realize what the triggers are to avoid those certain things like that. So it's a really good book for that. But more importantly, and I told her this before the show, this book is absolute must read for any family member. With a VA of a veteran with PTSD, anyone, this is the book for that. Hands down, it will open up their eyes to what is going on in the veteran community and what their veteran is feeling or experiencing. And when they can kind of step into the boots a little bit and have a little bit of an idea of what's going on inside their mind. And it can help an understanding, bridge that communication gap a little bit. When somebody can know and understand a little bit more, they're going to fully understand, but you can definitely understand a little bit more. So I highly encourage you to go get at least as book. With that. I'm going to go ahead and wrap this up. Thank you all for tuning in.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai