Horsepower
When you think of the term horsepower your mind probably goes to cars. Horses have been useful to humans for a long time but their power to help others heal might just be a more recently noticed benefit. Marine Corps veteran Jessica Shively had her own connection with a horse at a young age which helped her through some personally difficult things. Now as the founder of Trail of Faith Farms, Jessica and her husband are working with once wild Mustangs captured by the Bureau of Land Management to help veterans and others with PTSD heal from their traumas. Jessica discusses some of the ways in which they help veterans and mustangs build trust in each other and bonds. Throughout this process they learn skills which will help them better adapt back to civilian life.
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EP 72: Horsepower
Transcript from Episode 72 with Jessica Shively:
Keith McKeever
Welcome to the battle buddy podcast with Keith McKeever. Hey, welcome back. I got a great episode for you today. Today we were talking about horses and equine therapy and all that stuff for the second time. I'm really excited about this because there's a lot of power in horses and horses can do for veterans, or people with other disabilities, physical disabilities, autism, a bunch of other different things. But we'll get to that here in a minute. Make sure hit that like and subscribe button, follow. Awesome. Make sure that you're following my guest. Right. Everything will be in the show notes. Like always, make sure you go like follow my guests. Without further ado, I've got Jessica. Well, Joe,
Jessica Shively
thank you. I appreciate it.
Keith McKeever
I'm glad to have you on here and talk about horses again. Like I told you, when we first talked, I went like 60 Something episodes without ever talking about horses. And here, it's gonna be a couple of episodes in like a month or five horses, but there's a lot of power to it. And it's really cool. But before we get into all that stuff, tell us a little bit about your story. Where are you from? What do you do in military? What got you into horses? Those kinds of things?
Jessica Shively
Absolutely. So I'm originally from Idaho, lived in Southern Illinois for a little bit. Got a lot of family around there. My husband and I we met in the Marine Corps. He's originally from Virginia, we both did motor T or motor transportation. So I drove seven tons, passenger buses, Humvees, anything and everything I can drive except for trailer bowls, those kind of suck. But yeah, did that. Pretty much mistaken the entire time it camp was June here in North Carolina. And I did deploy for a year went to Iraq. We did a lot of mission missions, you know, with retrograde moving gear and all that kind of stuff. And then when we got out of the Marine Corps came back and we were trying to like figure out where we wanted to stay and my husband was like, I really don't like snow. So Illinois is not really for me, Idaho is not really for me. And I'm like Virginia. They have hills. What's there? Not much of anything. So then we just decided to stay here in North Carolina.
Keith McKeever
Well, shortest movie could have gotten
Jessica Shively
right. Honestly, yeah. Yeah. Oh, jeez, we did a drive one time to Idaho. And that was like a week.
Keith McKeever
does not surprise me. I've never driven that far. But I've gone from Illinois down to Florida. And that's a hike. That's yeah, a lot of time on the road.
Jessica Shively
Well, and like we've got a quite a bit of family that's there in Illinois. And I mean, that's a good 1618 hour drive. So, you know, that just wears you slam out?
Keith McKeever
Yeah, I mean, you got to you got to find a hotel room in the middle and break it up into a couple of days. And, you know, course you could push it and drive it in one day. I highly, highly encourage that design.
Jessica Shively
thing to do not gonna lie. That's kind of what we do. And then we're like, Oh, stop for the dog. Because we don't need to stop for us though.
Keith McKeever
It's always what you do. And here's what you should do. Right? Right. Exactly. When you're in the military. They're like, Okay, you're going on leave. Now remember, you can only drive X amount of hours. I came up with your first. Maybe it was eight hours. I don't know. But they'd forgotten Mickey signed a waiver. Like you're not going to drive. Yeah. So so many more hours a day or whatever. And, I mean, my limit is like eight to 10 and after that, I'm like, Alright, I'm tired. I'd be in cramped up at this car. I gotta stretch my legs go to the bathroom. I don't have pets to worry about but I got kids so. Oh, that was a 30 miles. God it was like, did you just go 30 miles back? I mean, for crying out loud. Like what? You gotta go again? What's the water? No, you can not have any water.
Jessica Shively
You're not You're gonna be dehydrated by the end of the stream.
Keith McKeever
All right. Just to get down to Florida. Got off topic just like get down to Florida and it's like okay, now you can hydrate or you want to drive you can put your pants in the ocean right
Keith McKeever
anyway, that got way off topic, but I love it. Totally follow the fly. That was terrible. What happens when you hang around horses and horse manure and well manure flies, right?
Jessica Shively
Well, you know, this is my office. I really shouldn't expect anything less but that was terrible.
Keith McKeever
Good point. Good point. So what originally got you into horses?
Jessica Shively
Oh man. So my grandpa he was kind of like my dad. The best way that I describe him is a cross between John Wayne and Jesus.
Keith McKeever
Interesting cross.
Jessica Shively
Well, I mean like if you ever if you ever saw him like it was traditional, like Jean wrangler button, button down long sleeve shirt, Wrangler Jeans, boots, cowboy hat. And then when he spoke, it was like, you know, you better listen up. And it was like King James Version, hype, hype talks. So like, you really had to sit there and pay attention and almost kind of like, decipher and you know, ask for direction on what he was actually talking about. So and even when I was a kid, like when I was like, seven, eight years old, he'd be talking to me like I was 30. And I'm like, I have no idea what that means. But I guess I'll eventually figure it out what you know, eventually, it made sense. But when I was about six years old, had a lot of stuff that happened. When I was a kid, I didn't really grow up in the greatest home. My parents got divorced when I was really young. A lot of domestic violence and my mother, she was very dependent on drugs. And that was actually eventually how she she passed away. She overdosed. So grandpa always was there. And he stepped in. So six years old. He told me to load up in a truck one day, and we went down this old bumpy dirt road because that was just one of the things that we did. And you know, if he wasn't hitting every pothole, pothole, it wasn't fun. And we showed up to this barn. And he was actually really good friends with this lady that owned the place. And her name is Jeanne. She's now retired. But you know, ever since then, I started taking lessons there. And it was just that was all that was all she wrote. I was one of my first jobs that I ever had, you know, cleaning out stalls, worked my way up to where I eventually was helping her with lessons. Couple of the horses that I got to start when they were really young that were born there. I got the to work with them. And one of the horses, he's actually my personal horse today. And it's pretty cool, because like, his name is rocket, his registered name is Whippet star, which is silly, but it's awesome. And he was born on July 4. So when I got back from deployment after, after all that, she actually asked me if I wanted to buy him, which was just amazing. Because even throughout, you know, my childhood and in the Marine Corps, and even now, like I still talk to her. So that's pretty much what started the journey of horses. And, of course, when I got older, I saw, like, I really looked up to Jeannie, and, you know, her her facility was gorgeous, what she did with kids and even adults like with lessons, it was just amazing to see, you know, even able bodied riders transform through their horsemanship journey. And then when I visited some of my family in Illinois, my little cousin, well, one of my little cousins, he's not necessarily like on the autism spectrum, but he is pretty nonverbal. You know, there's just a lot of sensory issues, not a whole bunch of independence. And after my father had passed away, my aunt had reached out to me and, you know, we went to go visit her and of course, see my cousin's and, and she had invited me to go see one of his therapy, writing lessons. And I'm like, Huh, I wonder what that is, you know, like, what is therapy writing? Because I wasn't really sure about it either.
Keith McKeever
Even though you had inadvertently been doing that way in your youth? Probably,
Jessica Shively
honestly. Yes. You know, with all the trauma, I joke sometimes, like, Yes, I saw a lot in the Marine Corps, especially with being deployed, but I'm like, pre pre Marine Corps. I'm like, I should be like, a psych ward. all this crazy stuff that I've seen. But you know, I wouldn't trade nothing. Because it's made me the person that I am. So and then I, you know, I go and I see Elliot on this 1200 pound animal. And he's sitting on top of his horse, and of course, you know, they have side walkers that are leading the horse and standing next to him, and, you know, it's it took a village to make sure, you know, everything was good. And he's waving at everybody to get away. And, and he'll say, away in his own in his own verbiage. And he was doing just that and it was just amazing to see him steer around these cones that they had because they set out an obstacle for him and pick up They had like these little floodable spiders out there for them, like, you know, a lot of games that were involved to keep them focused and just have fun. And after I saw that, I was like, How can I do that I want to do that, like that is amazing. And then ended up talking to his instructor and figured out the organization that they go through to actually get certified and therapeutic riding, teach it. And then, you know, later on mentorship in turning our facility into, hopefully, you know, a Certified Therapeutic Riding Center, and just, you know, expanding on that. So that's what kind of drove me into the therapy writing side.
Keith McKeever
That's awesome, that you got to witness that, and it inspired you to start going down this path to be able to do it too. But that had to just be incredibly touching and emotional to see, just to see someone who's nonverbal. Because I've got some family members that are on the autism spectrum, and one of them was very nonverbal for a few years. Now, he won't shut up. He's a goofy little guy. But you know, it's amazing, because horses, you know, there's there is no verbal communication. I mean, you can, sure you can talk to your horse, but what are they going to do back, just nod their head and look at you. Probably thinking in their head, oh, this person's a nut job. I don't understand what you're saying, I just see the lips moving. But right. That's pretty cool, pretty cool story to how everything that you're doing is shaped from your past and family and things that you've seen and dealt with.
Jessica Shively
That is pretty neat. And with the therapy side, like we've now kind of moved more towards into working with veterans. And, you know, you as well as being a veteran, there's not a, there's a lot of resources, but there's not a lot of resources that really give a pair. And, you know, traditional type therapies are great. However, I'm speaking from experience, I wasn't really a big, a big fan of that, you know, you're sitting there on a sofa, and somebody's like, oh, how does that make you feel? Like, that's great, but I don't really want to talk about my feelings, you know. So then. So then working with these Mustangs, like domestic horses are great, but Mustangs are so much more sensitive, because they're not raised around people, versus you know, domestics are. So when I started working with them, it really made me do a self check on how I was responding emotionally or dealing with, you know, say I had a really crummy day, and I was super angry, and I didn't want to talk, my husband didn't want to pet my dog didn't want to do nothing, except, you know, kick around a soccer ball or, you know, visually think about punches somebody in the face. And then I come out here to the round pen, and I'd want to work with my horse, and that horse wouldn't even come up to me, or the Mustang rather, because they can sense all of that, you know, energy, if you will. And that that lack of communication, and, you know, horses, they can feel your heartbeat up to two miles away. So, you know, don't tell me that they can't sense if you're withholding anger, or if you're anxious, or if you had a stressful day, or whatever. And so when I started working with, with these Mustangs, and again, they've most of the time, they've come from rescue situations. And then I got more interested in in, you know, if I could become an approved trainer, or, you know, how can I get these Mustangs when they've never even been handled. So I got more involved with the Bureau of Labor Management and then the Mustang Heritage Foundation, and became an approved trainer through them, which pretty much just means I can go to any organization that set up by the BLM, the Bureau, the Bureau of Land Management, and pick up these Mustangs that have never been handled by anyone. And then I can bring them back to my facility that meets requirements to the Bureau of Land Management Standards. And then what we call it as we call it, the gentling process. So what we're doing now is we're pairing these veterans with these Mustangs in this gentling process, which I feel can also be applied to us as, you know, we at times need to be gentle, most definitely after we get out of the service. And, you know, there's organizations that are available to try to prepare us to the best of the ability to go back into, into the civilian sector. But, you know, it's still, it's still hard to cope into that different environment, which, again, is very similar to these Mustangs, because here, they were wild, we pulled them out of their common environment, and then threw them in a world wind into a new one very similar to like the civilian life. And, you know, they have two sides of their brain fight or flight, all horses do, including Mustangs, but again, you know, Mustangs are much more sensitive, which, again, can be relatable to us, when we come back from deployment, or whatever, all we want to do is fight or flee. You know, so good point, yeah. When we, when we stick somebody with these, you know, similar souls, if you will, you know, we can, we can learn a lot from them. And we can also come from a common place. And it's been amazing to see a lot of the growth and awareness, if you will, from, you know, how we handle things and how we should do stuff better?
Keith McKeever
Absolutely, there's a, there are so many similarities, I didn't pick up on that until just a few minutes, you know, different environments, you both ended up in the pen together. You know, you had told me previously that, you know, these horses are coming from the west, they're rounded up, there's a conservation pieces, they're not just going out there and rounding up horses, what they are, but they're dealing with a purpose, right, you're doing it to make sure that the herds are not going in places they shouldn't be, that they're managing them so that they're healthy hers, and things like that, you know, and then they're getting them hopefully, and some good caring people. And, you know, and then eventually, in some cases, they end up in a place like yours, where somebody who's damaged and broken and in a new environment can come in there and, and do that process together. So I'm assuming if all things were equal, if you had two veterans with the same exact problems, which we know, that never happens, similar, and then you had a Mustang, and when for sex for a quarter horse 30 Take the process would be a lot longer for that. gentling and then bonding and everything, I would assume probably drastically longer. Yeah, yeah, it would be. But how long does it take for for? On average, would you say for somebody? Well, it depends was meeting, you know?
Jessica Shively
Well, and kind of how you mentioned like, so say, if you had a veteran if you had two veterans side by side that have PTSD, okay. But you have to take take it like, all people have different personalities. So, you know, I used to be very introverted when I was younger. Um, can you believe that? No, not really. But you know, now, I am not, I am much more assertive. So, you know, if we if we take all the different personalities from somebody who's pretty Meek or introverted to somebody who's a little bit more assertive, and we pair them with a Mustang, and I call it horse analogy. If the horse personality is very assertive, or shy, then most likely you're going to have better progression with a introverted horse and an assertive person, but not somebody who's going to skip rope that line with aggression, if that makes sense. That's kind of where it comes into play where we really have to check our emotions. Then if you get somebody who's really timid, that has never been around a horse, which nine times out of 10 That's usually a lot of the veterans that come out, they've never been around horses. And you get them with a horse that say, if you will, a little bit more assertive, and curious, then those ones can typically progress pretty quickly. One of my personal Mustangs Her name is valor. She's very assertive and very Are you curious? So, the day after I brought her to the farm, I was able to touch her. Because she was interested in me. She walked up to me, she nudged my arm. And I'm like, oh, boy, this is amazing. You know, it didn't take much effort on my behalf. I just had to be there. And, and it's really hard, but just to sit and be patient. And because like, even when we look at a horse, we add pressure to them. It's almost kind of like if you went to a grocery store, and I saw you in an aisle, and I just kept staring at you. And you're like, What do I do? I know you
Keith McKeever
are gonna hate is this dessert? Is there something on my back? Toilet paper on my shoe? Or? Exactly right? There's this lady cooking me like a curry. Yeah,
Jessica Shively
that's exactly right. So it would be no different if we went into that pan. And we were sitting there staring at it. And the horse is like, what? What's with you? Like, do you expect something from me? Like, should I run away? Should I stay here? Like, you're creepy? So
Keith McKeever
they're gonna fight or flight response to right? That's exactly right. That's what it is. Oh, so has so much to say on the, on the emotions of this stuff? What? How powerful is it for you when you're kind of guiding people through this process? Or they're watching to see that process unfold? Like that? You know, maybe it's a third, fourth, fifth 10th time, somebody's out there. And finally, that Mustang comes over and nudges them, or they're able to, you know, touch their neck or get that close?
Jessica Shively
Yeah, no, it's, it gives me goosebumps, like, it's pretty cool. And like, I try not to get like, you know, all girly and emotional. But it's just like, Oh, man. It's, it's just great. It's just so cool. It's so cool. And then when you see, when you see the reactions from these veterans to, you know, a lot of the times they're sitting in that pen, I'll have them just sit in the middle of the pen, just like sitting in a chair or a mounting block or whatever. Okay. And, you know, usually a lot of the times, we're just just talking, you know, you know, what did you do in the Marine Corps, or the Air Force or army or whatever? You know, how many kids do you have? Do you like dogs, you know, just normal conversation. That's not so therapy, like, you know,
Keith McKeever
assuming that also keeps the focus on the two of you, and not on the horse. So the horse, wander, probably circle around and be like, Okay, what's going on?
Jessica Shively
Really, really, because what you're doing is you're creating a vibe and environment of curiosity for that animal, instead of, you know, how we mentioned, like in the grocery store staring at you. So, you know, and that could be the first session, the second session could go like that to third, fourth, whatever, to eventually wear, that veteran, lets their guard down, and get more comfortable. And then a lot of the times that Mustang will directly approach him and, and nudge the, the hand or the arm. And when that horse nudges you, that's an invitation of, alright, cool, you can come into my space, you can rub me, rub my cheek, rub my neck, hang out with me. Because a lot of the times, you know, we go into a scenario and thinking, Oh, well, we need to do stuff we need to work, you know, we need to immediately appease whoever we're with. No, now we don't, we don't expect anything. And honestly, you get more results when you don't have expectations. So a lot of advice
Keith McKeever
for people, right? They're not having rotations of being present in the moment.
Jessica Shively
That's exactly right. And you know, in even with people, work with the person that's in front of you work with the horse, it's in front of you. And like in that round pen setting, if we're just hanging out and just wanting it to approach us and touch us cool if we accomplish that. Alright, awesome. Let's leave within on a great note. You know, that's like a load lifted. In other scenarios. We'll give veterans a simple task such as, you know, if they're, well, this is a good example if someone has a more of an assertive personality and they want a job to do. So we can give them a job, we can give them a goal, but again, don't have to show right. But, but we don't want to get so hung up on expectations. So let's say we're still in the round pen. And I'm like, Alright, cool, like how about, we just walk in there, I'm gonna give you a halter and a lead rope, go catch your horse. Let's see what happens. You know, and we as predators, because horses are prey animals, again, where they get that fight or flight, you know, we look like meat, we smell like meat, we've got two eyes in front of our face. So like, we automatically come off like a cougar, you know. And if we directly approach that horse in that round pen, most naturally, they're going to run away. So it's very interesting to see a lot of vets that are more assertive where they direct line think, and automatically go right to that horse, and then it runs away. And they're like, what just happened?
Keith McKeever
You know, coming out of face to face instead of, I'm assuming from from obviously, when we were approached the rear, probably not a great idea. But a good side, I have been around horses a little bit my life but approaching from the side to their, to their shoulder,
Jessica Shively
shoulder, yeah, perfect. Okay, that's a neutral spot on a horse, you know, and a lot of the times, even if it's not even physically altering, and catching that horse, like when we go back to the Mustangs and we go to that gentling process, how I had mentioned to you before, these Mustangs are labeled with a freeze brand on their neck, which is very similar to how we are in the military with our social. So the freeze brand translates into numbers, which is, you know, done by the angle system. So, you know, the first symbol, it's pretty much saying we're, you know, they're owned by the government. The next two symbols are vertical, those are like an estimated year that they were born. Next two numbers will typically tell you like, what, what state they came from. And then where the meat and potatoes is, the last four is comparable to our social that those last four numbers are only, you know, define that Mustang. So, with that being said, when they're not gentle, they have a neck tag around their neck with a little plastic almost kind of like a cow tag that has their last four numbers on it. So in the gentling process, usually the first goal is to take off that neck tag. So if you were to go back to approach that horse at the shoulder, and then, you know, got it used to touch on the shoulder and worked your way up the neck, and then of course, around the neck to get the neck tag off, man that's like, you know, that's like winning the lottery, when you get that thing off. And that's, you know, that's the start of that gentling process with with these Mustangs.
Keith McKeever
Oh, that's the point at which you've got, you've established a baseline of trust?
Jessica Shively
Pretty much. Yes, absolutely. I
Keith McKeever
mean, they've been curious, but cautious, up to that point. And at that point, in the probably pretty close to letting you do just about anything,
Jessica Shively
pretty much because once you get that tag off, and you get those initial first touches, and you know, and then work your way into altering and, and then you know, you can groom all over and lead it and pick up feet and all that kind of stuff, which then pretty much to that point. You know, horses need a leader. And those those are, you know,
Keith McKeever
they are herd animal, I mean, they do follow a leader in the wild.
Jessica Shively
They do yes. And, and again, me as a veteran and not being as assertive as I as I used to be, you know, I used to be pretty, pretty timid and terrible communication used to be pretty angry and, you know, just all that stuff that we get from from being around the military. So when I started working with them, I really wasn't quite too sure about my leadership role and confidence I didn't have a lot of confidence especially with with them. And fear kind of creeped them quite a bit and what I should be doing or what I shouldn't be doing or you know, a lot of doubt and again, that anxiety that kind of kicked in quite had a bit, you know. And then again, kind of like you go back to that, that first tag off kind of feeling with that Mustang and then it's like, Man that that builds your confidence. That kind of snuffs out fear and snuff sound anxiety and snuffs out PTSD and, you know, all these labels that they have for us that, you know, are not necessary. And the horse doesn't even look at that. It just simply looks at the fact at, can you lead me confidently? And if you can't I leave? And if you can, I'll come back to you.
Keith McKeever
And if you can, and if I do, I trust you to not, you know, to hurt me to eat.
Jessica Shively
Yeah, because because horses they a lot of the loans, and I don't say a lot, but their main focus is safety, play, and food. If we can provide those three things for them to they'll do anything for us.
Keith McKeever
I mean, all the farming in this country used to be done with horses. Yeah, well, you can use it for everywhere, transportation, farming, everything was interesting. And nothing just dawned on me. Because service dogs are another huge treatment and support for but they do things just a different way. Because I know people have service dogs and that's that's day to day everywhere with you calm you down. When you get those triggering moments or, you know, you're at the grocery store, somebody's staring at you weird, or whatever the case may be, or I want to retriggers you, but that's like an everyday thing. And what I'm hearing here is it's it's confidence, and patience. What you think we'd be pretty good at with hurry up and wait, but we're terrible at that. Hurry up and wait. We all pitch and complain to each other. That's exactly what's gonna take this is ridiculous. We've just been here for four hours. 40 minutes now. That's true, though. Like four hours. Four o'clock in the morning for for 11 o'clock in the morning meeting or command or whatever. But anyway. Yeah, but but that's more of a Yeah, so I guess what I was getting ahead of what dawned on me as service dogs are more of a daily support. This is a confidence builder. Skill Builder skill reinforcer?
Jessica Shively
Absolutely, yeah. And I see that, like, even with a therapeutic riding, you know, when you have a child or an adult that comes out and it's not verbal? Well, shoe after a couple of weeks, they can almost tell you every single horse, it's on the facility. They can tell you what treats they like. And you know, again, like with, with the veterans, when they're working with these Mustangs, it's it's not just a temporary positive. Oh, gosh, what's the word? Oh,
Keith McKeever
I understand where you're going. Because you kind of alluded to it earlier with other other nonprofits. And I don't want this to sound bad. But there are 1000s of veteran nonprofits out there. There are some of them are weekend getaways and retreats, fishing, hunting trips, hiking trips, whatever. I hear, I've heard a lot of people complain about those. That doesn't really do anything? Well, it does. It takes somebody out of an environment that may be bad for them for a couple of days. Reset, be in touch with the community, whatever. Is it permanent? No, it's not. But it does, it could very well lead to some permanent skills or lead to some other connections. could vary. Def definitely could save a life. But this is more of an intermediate thing. This are intermediate to long term, because you don't just come once, you've probably got to come multiple times a week for four weeks on end to build up this trust potentially get through these different stages. You know, then you have there are programs out there that are long term, large nonprofits that do a wide array of different things and make millions and millions of dollars may or may not have all of that back in support. But still, I mean a whole different topic for another day. But yeah, you know, there's different things have a different mission, different roles different.
Jessica Shively
You make a really good point because like there are a lot of organizations that for veterans like they offer, you know, what is it there's this one program that I thought was kind of cool like they do rides up in the mountains, but you're like, you know, you're driving cattle, you're going through mountains on horseback, you're doing all this, you know, stuff that's really keeping your mind busy. And then, you know, I'm like, man, yeah, that's it, that's a great program. However, it's almost kind of like, that's just a temporary fix his, it's not really helping you make yourself better. Versus when we've got vets that come out here. It can be an uncomfortable situation, but not as uncomfortable as it would be in a four wall setting, to where it really makes you confront yourself, and you have to better yourself versus are Yee ha, I want to go on a, you know, four mile trail ride, you know what I mean? And it's, I feel like, again, a lot of it, it's, it's, it's awareness. And it really kind of makes you do a self evaluation on, you know, again, when we've got these challenges with PTSD and anxiety and depression. And there's many avenues out there good and bad, that can make you feel better for a moment. But if we actually take the time to instill in our vets, and just like how we did in the military have this community to lift one another up, you know, and again, use these Mustangs to really put into us and make us better for the long term. You know, I think that does more than, you know, those those temporary trail rides.
Keith McKeever
I mean, we're all as different as their fingerprints. And when I was trying to make about those some of those nonprofits, because not everybody has PTSD, we definitely don't all come out of the military with with with the same set of problems. You know, some people might not have any mental health problems that have physical, a lot of ton of physical problems, or vice versa, or have virtually no problems, but they're veteran still. And maybe that's like, you know what, I'm just really stressed by family at work, right? You're sure nothing military related. But they're like, Hey, I'm gonna take this fishing trip. And it's great. It's just, I mean, we all need quality lifetime,
Jessica Shively
for sure. For sure, absolutely. Just
Keith McKeever
everybody has a different need. And it's just about finding that right fit, which is really difficult to do when there's like 50 or 70,000, nonprofits out there devoted veterans. Right, and some are good. I would say the intentions on most are good. Some of them are very well ran. Some of them have some, some knocks, you know, like, you know, how much they pay their CEOs, stuff. Like, I'm not I'm not saying that they don't deliver good services. But there's also crooks out there, too, which is a real problem, that there are people out there that will, you know, promises to do things and not do it. And that's just unfortunate. Reality. But that's one of the things I love by having this podcast is I can interview people like you and some of the other people that are doing amazing things and highlight people who are doing instead of just talking,
Jessica Shively
right, right. I know, it took us it took us years Well, I guess in the past year with the with the Mustang program, we finally came up with the name of it this past year, which is operational longer number, which is you know, underneath trail of faith farms, but you
Keith McKeever
got to put that scrolling at the bottom, but it is now it'd be the harass me about that. I'm gonna check the website before we started.
Jessica Shively
We all fall short of the glory. It's bye, bye, you Yeah, so like Operation no longer number how I had mentioned to you before, going back to the last for the tag on the Mustang. And then the last four of our social, how were, you know, definitely defined more than our last four. And it took us quite a few years, but at least now we're finally a vendor through Trillium Health Resources. So if we do have, you know, these veterans and even just Therapeutic Riding clients that come out and ask about our services, it's great that they actually now do cover those services. And one of these days, I'm going to try to get into the VA, but man that
Keith McKeever
I've talked to a few people trying to get products and services into the VA and that well, it's the government. You know exactly. Where you can say about that, but what's your in, you're in like you're in the club, but they're not gonna make it easy. That's true. No, they have. I do see more. It just seemed to be more willingness How to serve for the VA to serve us as veterans. Over the last few years, I've been out 11 years now and, and things have changed a little bit. Now, not all VA systems are great. But I mean, I think, I think with like community care, and some of the things that the VA has come out with realizing that we have rural veterans that can't make it in all that, well, my actual hospitals like two, almost three hours away, I guess, where I'm at, now, I've got a clinic 25 minutes away, which is great. And they have a good amount of services. But not everyone is that lucky? Right? Three, four or five hours away? That's not close. Yeah, you know, it makes it a real burden for people to get in there. So to be able to, you know, find doctors and providers in the community to make the trip shorter for people and get them care faster. I mean, that only happened in the last few years, and the VA has been around for a pretty long time.
Jessica Shively
You're right, you're absolutely right. Yeah. Yeah, at least there has been some forward
Keith McKeever
progress. Like, you know, another thing is this newer, they've got a whole health program. So it's not just, it's not I actually decided to go through it. So it was pitched to me by my doctor, and I thought, you know, what? Not interested. But then I thought, You know what, I run a podcast talking about veterans issues. I might as well test this out for myself, right? And so it's whole health. So it looks at everything in your life from diet and exercise and mental health and physical health. And how are you feeling about this lady who I connected with, she was a counselor, but she she's not a counselor in that role. But I tell you what, I absolutely love my conversations with her every couple of weeks. Because we don't talk about just how am I feeling? Right? How am I doing with this? And how do I do it that I think it's a pretty neat program, what I've seen so far been in it for a couple of months, but to talk about, you know, where do you want to be personally and professionally in growth? And, you know, are you exercising Are you know, let's come up with a plan for that. They taught Tai Chi and yoga, chair yoga are also offered to that program. I have not tried those yet. Oh, no. I tried to share yoga. She actually was pretty good. And I'm like, I'm gonna have to take your word for it. I'm I don't know about chair yoga. I tried yoga once I almost didn't get off the floor. So we have people around here that do goat yoga. I've heard of that, too. And it's like, you know, a body doesn't move like that. You know, that's that's a weird poses. I feel the cracking and popping and it's like, you know, you're putting a 40 or 50 pound goat on my back what I'm
Jessica Shively
doing, I stand up and I sound like rice krispies. Oh, 911
Keith McKeever
there's a lot of cool things that they're that they're doing. But it doesn't it doesn't. doesn't work for everybody. Right? So you got to gotta have those outside divorce resources outside of the VA that can provide service dogs or equine therapy, or we can get aways or skills. Because everybody has different problems.
Jessica Shively
Right. And I know, it's been kind of cool, because we've got a lot of a lot of active, excuse me, words are hard, active to meet wives that come out to our barn. And a lot of the gals here recently, they've told me that there's been a lot of like, couples retreats that they've been doing, like through the, through the VA, right, either through the VA or their command or any there's some something to that aspect. And I'm like, dang, they didn't do that. When I was in. They tried to deploy us, you know, different countries.
Keith McKeever
Absolutely, yeah. That's, that's a desert shift from from back in the day. Right. You know, things were a little different back when we were in now. I mean, it's 2022. Now, deployment tempos are so strong and get back and then boom, you know, another groups going, right, constant churn. So thank goodness, we're at a better place now that we don't have that. Both wars are over. But yes, that's, that's been incredible conversation. I appreciate it. Jessica, bringing shed light on the Bureau of Land Management, Mustangs and equine therapy and all kinds of stuff. So I appreciate you coming on and sharing it with us.
Jessica Shively
Yeah, it's been my pleasure. I know I could talk about horses for the rest of my life. My husband gets sick of it. It's like you have a mute button. Yeah, that's right. I know. I don't like anything. Come on.
Keith McKeever
Until you find a way to just merge your horse bar with your house. Just have your windows open to the horses stick their head in documents
Jessica Shively
I have tried to like wiggle that in with him. Keep trying. Which is cool though because like we were in the process of expanding, we've purchased another farm that's larger than our current place and oh boy, the things that we're gonna be able to do I'm so excited. I've been trying to tell him like, hey, we could we could have a, you know, a an apartment of the above the barn and he's like, Absolutely not. Like, come on. And if you
Keith McKeever
spend so much time out there anyway, you know, convenient. Convenience or something said about convenience. Sounds like you've got a bigger space, since horses are more your thing than hit. Sounds like he needs a hobby. Well, for
Jessica Shively
he does like his motorcycle. So he I'm sure he'll have plenty of room to write that. But I'm tell you
Keith McKeever
what is a guy. I'll say this. You give him a little bit of space to work on his motorcycle, and you're good.
Jessica Shively
Oh, yeah. And then he's got all the huntin spots he can have so
Keith McKeever
as long as that fridge got some beer in it. If you got a spot for his motorcycle place to hunt, I'm sure he'll Absolutely that's a that's, you know, what more could you ask for?
Jessica Shively
Well, and it's funny when I first saw that property when I drove down the driveway, I saw three big bodied deer that like ran across the driveway. And I told the guy that was showing me the place I was like so my husband will move here
Keith McKeever
free I know how to move here. Yeah. anymore. That's awesome. As awesome so you got your website scroll on at the bottom trails trail of faith farms.com Now getting Tongue Tied mentioned that you're there. Check it out. Don't worry. It's in the show notes and everything like I said the beginning show make sure you go follow Jessica and what she's doing, like unsubscribed all her socials and all that stuff. And and if you're on the fence about it, you should go do it. I'm actually thinking about cuz I'm just curious, like that naturally curious person. I'm gonna have to see who's doing equine therapy around here. I gotta go see us doing it. Like, I got to go see this. Now I gotta go see that breakthrough and see how this process plays out? Because I'm just curious.
Jessica Shively
You need to do it. Absolutely need to do it.
Keith McKeever
Do it, I'll have to, I'll have to go videotape it.
Jessica Shively
You need to now and if I'm not mistaken, I think there's a place that's near you that's called bravehearts. And they they have a fabulous Veteran Program. Not, it's similar to what to what we do. I mean, they do work with Mustangs as well and have those with their veterans. But I mean, you know, instead of coming all the way down here.
Keith McKeever
I mean, I would love I'm so curious. I just even like said, even if it's not me, that's working with the horse, just be there and kind of witnessed this, to see this. Oh, just to know that. That's why I asked that question about seeing that breakthrough. Because it's got to be incredibly rewarding to know that, okay, there's this, there's this moment that just happened. And this person has changed in a little way for the positive from here on out. And it's just keep building, you know, consistently after
Jessica Shively
that. It's amazing. And it's almost kind of like, you know, I'm sure we all have been in a place where it's been pretty dark. And we feel like there's there's not much we can do or we kind of have that sensation of hopelessness. And when we accomplish something just as simple as that horse just approaching us and sniffing us, it's just like, wow, you know, I have a purpose. And you know, and it just, it just grows from there. It's pretty cool.
Keith McKeever
Absolutely. Well, once again, I appreciate you stopping by and sharing with us.
Jessica Shively
Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.
Keith McKeever
All right, there you go, folks, make sure you go check out the website battle buddy podcast.net for all kinds of information resources, and like I always say, if there's not something on there that you think should be reached out to me, let me know so we could try and make some steps to to get that resource information added in if you are struggling right now. The national suicide hotline number is now 988 press one or you can text 8382552