Hoarding

Thanks to Tammi Moses a Navy veteran and host of the Hoarding Solution Podcast for coming on the podcast to discuss the topic of hoarding! Did you know hoarding affects roughly 19 million Americans? That is a lot of people and without a doubt that affects military members and veterans. Learn some actionable ways you can assist and approach the hoarders in your life to really help!

Guest Links: https://homesareforliving.com/

Transcript from Episode 8 with Tammi Moses:

Keith McKeever 0:09

Alright everybody, welcome to the battle buddy podcast. Got a great episode for you here today. If you've ever seen the show hoarders, and you've ever wanted to know more about hoarding, and the whole topic of hoarding, then you want to stick around for this episode. Tonight, I'm joined by Tammy Moses. She's a Navy veteran, and host of the hoarding solution podcast. And this is very near and dear to her heart, she she has experienced these things herself as a child. So she's got a heck of a story, and really knows a lot about this topic. And if you didn't know about 19 million Americans are about 6% or so of the population deal with this issue. And so this is an issue that not only deals with veterans, because we know some veterans have either grown up in this situation, might be in a situation or have family members in it. So might want to tune in and check this out. Before we get started here. I also want to make an announcement that the veteran nonprofit out there called Project diehard is looking for for assistance. I'm going to pop that link right here. Project diehard.org. Give them a little shout out here. If you've been checking on my episode, my podcast for a while, you know, I don't I don't really do shout outs. This is actually the first one. But I believe in this mission that they're trying to do here. They're trying to set up a home called FOB rush in Southern Illinois, that will house veterans going through difficult times and get them the counseling that they need for a week, month, even up to a year. They are planning on having a couple spaces for some for some families as well so that the family can get the healing, and that these people can get the help that they need. So if you find it in the kindness of your heart to go check out Project diehard.org, they could use some assistance. They're looking at sponsors that can step up to the bat and pay $22 a month. And this will have I believe, a direct impact on on saving some lives. Saving some veteran lives from suicide, because we've got way too many that it's happening every single day. So without further ado, we're gonna get right into the episode with Tammy. Welcome to the battle buddy podcast with Keith McKeever. Alright, Tammy, welcome to the to the battle buddy podcast is awesome to have you here. I've been looking forward to this episode for a long time. If you don't mind, go ahead and tell us your story where you're from, how you ended up in the Navy, what you did the Navy and how you got to where you're at today.

Tammi Moses 2:20

Hi, Keith, thanks so much for having me. I'm happy to be here. And so I grew up in Port Angeles, Washington, about three or so hours from Seattle. And I kind of grew up, I guess you would say on a hobby farm situation where we had a few animals. I guess I was considered lucky cuz I had a pony in fifth grade, which was, you know, like this oh moment.

Keith McKeever 2:49

Probably a lot of little girls out there that are really jealous in that situation. Fantasy they're

Tammi Moses 2:56

exactly it didn't occur to me that that was like a like this thing, you know. And so it was my younger brother and my parents. And we, well, we initially lived in town, and we moved to a one room cabin for about four years. And then we moved into a bigger house. And basically, when we lived in a smaller space, there wasn't issues that I recall. Once we moved to a bigger house, we pulled things out of storage. And the house over time kind of just became storage. And of course, we didn't call it anything. It was just like clutter and stuff and whatever, when I was growing up. And so the other part that I realized I don't share a whole lot is my younger brother had Duchenne muscular dystrophy. And so he ended up in a wheelchair at about 13. And because of the amount of stuff in the house, it was really limited for him to be able to get around in there. We went to school, I was very involved in church and youth group and choir and all that stuff growing up. And I enlisted in the delayed entry program, my senior year of high school. And the Navy recruiter happened to be there on a day that I had a free lunch period. And that's kind of how we had a conversation about three hots and a cot and traveling and money for a house and honestly, I'd always wanted my own house that I could do whatever I wanted in so there was this college was a draw but the house was more the draw that eventually I could use like my VA certificate to buy a home and I'm so I was still a senior in high school when I enlisted and I, to this day maintain it was one of the best decisions I could have made. because I really wanted out, I wanted to travel, I wanted to see things. And my dad had been in the Navy, so I kind of had familiarity with that. And so that's kind of how my adventure into the military started. Anyway, go ahead,

Keith McKeever 5:21

I didn't know that about your dad being in the Navy, I was just gonna ask, you know, how was that grown up? Like having? You know, how heavily did that influence it? did? Did your dad seem to have issues as having been in the Navy, like stricter parent, like, you know, any of those kind of things?

Tammi Moses 5:37

I think, I think it did make him somewhat more strict. And, I mean, he was a person who you kind of had to gauge the humor, because you could really go you know, Sailor humor, or was he more in church humor mode. So, um, but things like, you know, Tammy Lynn, Moses, front and center, learning how to eat properly at the table, you know, the proper silverware and etiquette. And we can be kind of crazy kids outside of that, but he kind of had expectations around meal time, or how we would behave. He did not like being called Sir. Because he was enlisted. And he would always make the comment that I work for a living. Don't call me, sir. And

Keith McKeever 6:32

a handful of times for some guys.

Tammi Moses 6:35

And so I knew as a teenager, if I wanted to tick him off, I could call him sir. And, you know, or if I

Keith McKeever 6:45

tried to get under the skin of your parents, you really tried to bother. Oh, come on. Yeah. I feel like sometimes I feel as apparently you mentioned that, like eating at the table, it's like, well, I must be failing as a parent, because my kids make a huge mess. And you're eating 10.

Tammi Moses 7:03

But, you know, I was reading something earlier today about the reason that kids act out around their mom, and I'm going to go ahead and say parents is because they're comfortable there. And that that's where they know, they're safe. And you you might be angry or punish them or something, but you still love them. And that's kind of why kids kind of do that around the people they know they're safe with or hope they're safe with. And it makes sense. Yeah. So I don't know, I'm not a parent. So I I refrain from judging any of that. I'm, I'm an at&t and I enjoy that role. And I think it'd be value given back.

Keith McKeever 7:47

Go back to that forget to be a pain in the butt. You just give back and you know, it's time come get him. You know, it's similar, I

Tammi Moses 7:53

guess, to grandparenting. Right, where you're just like, Okay, come get your come get them. We're done.

Keith McKeever 7:59

Yeah, you know, my parents were kind of strict sometimes. But but my, you know, my mom, even my, my mother in law, like, they sure do pamper their grandbabies. Like, they will bend over backwards to make sure that the grandbabies have as much sugar as they possibly can for going home. No matter how close it is to bedtime. You know, I kind of look at that. I'm like, Man, I hope my kids have kids someday, because I can't wait to get back here. So I guess, as payback, like, they may not realize it, but I'm gonna pay him back really, really good. I'm gonna give them good. I'm gonna really load him up on sugar. He wants a Mountain Dew and some pixie sticks. Go ahead. Okay, it's 9pm Mama daddy are gonna have to deal with you soon. Oh, geez. Yeah, we go down that rabbit hole being a parent. It's a challenge sometimes. But you know, it's also great to be to be a parent. And it's also great to be an aunt and uncle to like, you know, like you said, you can you can give them back when they get to be a pain in the butt. But so my nieces and nephews are old enough where I want them to come over, like I got yard work to do and my kids aren't doing it. Anyway. So your see your story with hoarding? You know, you grew up with that. You know, that had to be really hard. When did you kind of notice like, when did you realize that aha moment that situation you've grown up in wasn't wasn't quite normal?

Tammi Moses 9:21

Well, the funny part is, I feel like for the first seven years of my life, I lived in town, I had running water, I watched Little House on the Prairie. I put on my pajamas, you know, so I could get ready for that. And then we moved. And so like, I always kept thinking, when are we going to get back to some kind of normal living? When are we going to get back to that? And we kind of never did it like we lived. My dad was raised born in Minnesota and in a small cabin, and he thought his kids should have that same experience, which is kind of how that came. About I do have some good memories of that time. And it really was like cabin living. But in the 80s, that was kind of like, not the norm, you know that, especially where we lived, it was like, What are you doing? Um, but I do have some good memories of that. And then, but I guess I always kind of felt like we weren't, we didn't quite fit. And then when we moved into the bigger house, I didn't have my own room for a while. And then eventually I did because I decided that I needed that space. And I had, like one of my last slumber parties, I have a couple friends over. And her mom came to pick her up. And when she walked in the house, there was a stack of egg cartons sitting there by the door. And she was dressed very nice, very nonfarm clothing. And I just remember like her knee, tap that stack a box. I mean, it was like enormous stack. And I remember thinking, I'm never inviting anyone ever again, ever. Like it was so embarrassing to me that those stacks got knocked over. And I pretty much kind of kept that other than neighbor, kids, or maybe a couple close friends of mine who kind of ended up having similar childhood experiences that I didn't really know about at the time. Like, it didn't cross my mind that we had similar living arrangements. And I really just started avoiding telling people where I lived, or, you know, I lived in the country, though, so it's not like you could drop me off two blocks away, like you kind of had to drop me in the driveway.

Keith McKeever 11:45

That's kind of how I grew up out the middle of nowhere. Yeah.

Tammi Moses 11:47

And so I mean, we have neighbors and the school bus rolled by and all that stuff, but I never really felt like, like, you see the houses on TV, or you see the way people live. And I just, even in a farming sense, we had acreage, but it still had more stuff and cars and things like that, that other people didn't have. And I don't really think I realized how many people dealt with that type of situation. So I was wade into adulthood, you know, late 30s, where I realized, what what was that about? And how come it's gotten so much worse since I moved out. And so but I wasn't, I was much older, when I started to really step back and examine why I had felt isolated, why I figured out ways to do my laundry at my grandma's. Why I decided if I ever got out, I would never go back. And I moved out my senior year of high school, I had a job offer at it for a woman I'd worked for for several years. And so I took it, and that kind of dissolved, you know, 18 You think you know everything. And so we kind of had a argument, the falling out. And so then I was in a spot where I was like, I'm not moving back, even though my parents wouldn't care. They had been just fine if I did, but I was like, I had made a promise to myself that I would get out. And when I did, I'd never go back. So I ended up really pushing my grandma to let me live with her. So kind of Blackbell grandma. Because I was like, Well, if you don't let me move in, I'm going to just call one of my aunts or do something else. Like I'm not going back there. And so anyway, I did and I finished my senior year of high school and live with her. And I still saw my parents and my brother and I drove their car. They picked me I don't know, we still had this connection, but I just didn't live there anymore. And people talk about homelessness, you know, homeless youth, and I'm like, Well, I never was technically without somewhere to go. But it was right at that cusp. And and I don't even know that we want to go off in this direction. But often when I see a situation like that, I wonder why did that kid leave? What What was that circumstance that caused them to make that choice? Or did they choose that, you know, and so there's times when we're made for them? Yeah, yeah. And sometimes kids get booted, because they're being brats and not behaving. And I get all that, you know, but there's that other side of why would they choose that? Why would you choose this uncertainty over this known certainty? You know?

Keith McKeever 14:36

Yeah, the opportunity costs, like, you know, the situation's just better or perceived to be better. I look at it like, you know, homelessness, because it's something I've kind of looked at from afar. And I think, you know, homelessness and hoarding are on a sliding scale. Really, like you've got Yeah, totally varying degrees. And so you know, I would say sounds like You're kind of in it. I don't know if it's correct term or not, but kind of a functionally homeless at that point, like, you know, without a permanent home, is it kind of is a homeless? I don't know, maybe it kind of functionally, maybe not somewhere in there. But so, back to the hoarding stuff here. You know, what kind of hoarding are do you see as a professional who you've got a podcast on this the hoarding solution? And you know, you're an expert on this, you've lived through it. When you go to a hoarding situation, or you see a hoarding situation, what what do you normally finding the most like? What are you seeing the most of? Is it kind of clean clutter, is it I know you don't watch the the hoarding shows on TV, but you got the clean and neatly organized just way too much stuff in no pathways, all the way to just the filthy disgusting, home needs to be condemned and tore down caught? What do you know, what are you seeing on the spectrum most of the time?

Tammi Moses 15:54

Well, and I like to use the term spectrum or you know, scale, because not every situation is the same. And I have seen where it's kind of it's kind of gross, like the cats not using the litter box, you know, they go wherever they are type of thing. All the way up to hey, you know, this needs a dumpster and we need a shovel. Like it's, you know, that that bad that you you have to take these extreme measures, you know, to find the floor, if you will, and something that I see a lot of, and I question whether it's technically hoarding, because a lot of times people will have a long term health issue that kind of causes them to be unable to maintain any longer. And so it can quickly go from, hey, I had a lot of stuff too. Now, I also can't bend over, and I have no energy to pick it up. And so it falls in it sits there. And so I found a lot of people that had mobility issues or health issues that kind of caused this thing to happen. Um, there's times when you'll go go in and you'll think, Hmm, I wonder if I'm gonna find a rodent. And you don't, you know, it's because it is cleaner, like you mentioned, it doesn't have the trash that hasn't been taken out, or the empty bottles or pop cans or whatever. And so people do kind of say, well, hoarding isn't always squalor, which is true, it isn't always that. But you do have cases where it is. And to me, that's the argument for a forced clean out or something where you must take immediate action because that person or their families in danger, or their neighbors, or if especially if you're in an apartment, or something like that. But I have seen full scale. And I think the most important piece, no matter where you fall on it is to look at the humans in that situation, and what's going on with them. And honestly, I almost always have like 100 questions that come into my head when someone calls me or contact me because you don't know what's happening in that whole situation. And so you have to kind of listen to what's going on and figure out is that person downsizing? Was there a death in the family that does the adult kid live in Connecticut, and the parent has a house in California? Like, what are the dynamics because it can be really challenging to navigate it, if you're nearby, let alone if you're across the country trying to deal with the Kneller

Keith McKeever 18:40

imagine that being a huge logistical nightmare. If you're across country across state lines, try to especially if you can get eyes on yourself and see what the situation is and coordinate everything. Like I don't know how you would possibly do that, that would be an astronomical task to be thrown into to try and do that. And then you combine that with if the person is deceased, and you're just cleaning up the property, that's one thing. Totally different if somebody or multiple people are living in the property. And now you got to take their health and safety into consideration as well as the property and cleaning up What are you doing with them? What's their status? I can I can totally understand how you'd have like, literally a million questions like cuz you got it you got I mean, you can't offer solutions, unless you have as much of the picture as possible. So you know, you definitely got to ask a lot of questions. So with that, my next question, what do you think the top maybe three to five factors are that lead people to becoming a hoarder?

Tammi Moses 19:42

Well, in a lot of the people I've worked with, and of course now mostly what I do is virtual but in previous times, I worked on site with them. And the most common thread I would say is around trauma, any kind of trauma that they experienced. Since as a kid growing up, maybe their parents had a hoarding issue, maybe they suffered a divorce or death or they lost a child or a pet. And something kind of Mitic kind of brings it up brings it to the surface, and their coping mechanism is around hoarding. Some of it is learned behavior, if you see it, that's all, you know, you don't really recognize maybe that you're, you're continuing that same thing in your own life. Sometimes it's too much stuff like, you might be fine. And now someone in your family passes away. And now you have all their household stuff, and you have to put it somewhere. And so now you're bringing it all into your space. And it can be start to be overwhelming.

Keith McKeever 20:50

I never thought about that, that or like collections. You just, you know, everything's neat and orderly, but you just find yourself like, you got these collections, you just buy more and more, and it gets in totes, and all of a sudden, you wake up one day, and you're like, Oh, I got like a whole roomful or I got multiple walls full of these books, or these dolls, or these DVDs or whatever. Yeah, I can see how it just kind of gets out of control, like, your passion for something to

Tammi Moses 21:17

in the collecting. Usually someone who collects it wants to show off their collection, their cars, their decks, what their you know, coffee cups, or whatever, you know, whatever it is, and they're kind of proud of that what they have accumulated versus someone who's hoarding and doesn't really want you in their space, wouldn't invite you in, they're kind of embarrassed or ashamed. And, you know, sometimes it's a coping mechanism for whatever. And they want to keep people at bay. And one way to do that is have stuff. And you if people can't get in, and they can't hurt you kind of thing. And frequently, people who hoard don't recognize they have a problem. They don't, they don't want, they don't see the clutter in the same way. And I've seen the brain scans where they show what a brain looks like that basically doesn't see the clutter the same way. And it's why they can have piles and piles of things, and have a pretty good idea of what's in that pile, they might have to dig down. But they would say, Hey, I know the car title. You know, I saw it in there, you know, two years ago, it should be in that pile. And honestly, you can disturb some of the things. And you're like, how would you even know somebody came in here and mess with your stuff, but they're so keyed in on on it, and how it they're very visual, that they will notice that someone moved a pile or threw out a board or did something that wasn't what they wanted to have done. And but I would say underlying things that I see are trauma on address trauma. And a lot of times there's coexisting Situ mental health things, depression, anxiety, things that are more extreme than that. I've seen people who have like traumatic brain injury. And who didn't hoard before, but after that, that's a behavior they exhibit. So then their care provider, which is often their spouse, or someone is like, hey, what do I do about this hoarding, because I can't clean their room, and I can't take out the trash. And so there's this constant struggle, often between someone that hoards and then someone that lives there that does not, and it puts a lot of strain on relationships. Even if you don't have hoarding, and you are more of a clutter bug. And your spouse is like, Hey, I don't go to bed before the dishes are done. You know.

Keith McKeever 23:43

That makes sense. And I'll take it back to like, that was a heck of a comment you said about like a barrier. And that I can understand. If you've had a trauma and somebody has done something to you maybe physical or sexual abuse or something as a child, I can totally see how having stuff around you clutter around, you can kind of just mentally give somebody that perspective of like, there's a barrier, like, there's just a physical barrier between me and the outside of this house, the outside of the world, whatever's out there, that's going to harm me. And I've never, never put a thought about it like that. But that that's like an epiphany moment to me, like that. Makes perfect sense that a lot of people could, subconsciously have those thoughts, and not really even realize it or even be able to articulate. That's exactly what's going on in their mind, but it's probably what they're doing subconsciously. So.

Tammi Moses 24:40

And there's that real disconnect between Why is my physical environment this way and what's going on up here? You know, and what have I not dealt with? That is causing me to do this and it's the same, it kind of comes up when someone does a forced cleanout. Sometimes it's necessary you have to do it. But even in that situation, you could talk to the person, you could ask what items are that? Would you want? Would they want you to find if they you found it like that type of thing. So there's a way to be more human about it. But there's times when you have to take that necessary step. And that is really hard. Because if you don't deal with underlying issues, they're going to record again pretty quickly. Another way to go about that is a Safety Day. I only recommend that if you have no pest issues, no leak, no. Because leaks can happen in a basement and not be reported. I worked on a house like that, who, anyway, you have to look at, you know, what, how can you do this without pop, possibly re traumatizing that person if you can avoid it, and I've had people when I work with them, part of the reason it takes a while is they want to tell you their story. And as they work through their story around their items, or 100 purses, which I have seen. Progress is getting it down to 50. You know, and someone else might be like, No, it's not. But yeah, it's because they told their story about all of these purses. And now they're like, I don't need it. Like, you know,

Keith McKeever 26:20

I mean, that's that's half right. I mean, you got half the individual problem gone.

Tammi Moses 26:24

I mean, how many of us get rid of half our stuff when we go through our closet? Generally? No,

Keith McKeever 26:29

not me. Not meaning. The other day, she got rid of a bunch of T shirts. Yeah, you know, I mean, it's kind of hard to go through certain things, even if you're not a hoarder, like, what do you get rid of? Well, you keep like those things. But now I was gonna ask this question later, you kind of hit on it, like physical condition of the property. Because as you know, I'm a realtor. So this, this topic is not only I think fast is, is interesting to talk about on a podcast for veterans, because we know that, you know, I have 6% of the population that there are military members and veterans that are dealing with this, whether themselves or family members. But you know, just as a realtor, like I'm interested in this, because I I normally come in, as we talked the other day, last week, I think it was, I normally come in towards the end of that situation. But how does a family member or anybody coming into a situation? That's a hoarding situation? How do you even assess the physical condition of the property? When you can't see the floor? Maybe you can't get to the basement because the stairs are, you know, cloud filled up or non existent? Because they fallen because of weight or something? You know, how do you assess that because I normally, like I said, come in at the end, where most of the things are cleaned up, or it's in progress or something like that.

Tammi Moses 27:48

It can be really hard to assess it if you can't access it, you know, and, and a lot of times, you can tell from the exterior, at least where I live a lot of times, I'll be like, huh, yeah, there's probably something going on there.

Keith McKeever 28:02

Besides on a foundation, but my first thought is like floor, right? You know, if you got hardwood floors, and you got many animals, and they're urinating, or defecating on the floor, and it's weakened that wood or it's rotted, you could put your foot right there on a stack of newspapers or something, and go right through the floor and not know, like, it's kind of hard to assess that. Sometimes.

Tammi Moses 28:25

Well, and honestly, it can be almost impossible to gain access to the space not only because of the clutter, and the stuff and stacks of things, but that person's willingness to let you into their space. And so I mean, I've had many times where I finally they would let me in. A lot of times, it's a family member, or someone that's concerned that will call me it's not necessarily the person with the issue. Although I have had that happen as well, they have to be ready to deal with it. But and or a landlord might be forcing them to deal with it. But that is a real risk that you run walking into some of these places, because you don't know how long that stuff has been sitting there. And, you know, floors are only meant to hold so much weight. You know, a second story isn't meant to be a library of 50 years of newspapers. So, and I've heard of that happening, like the ceiling comes down. I was recently in a house. And as soon as I stepped in the, in the door, I was like, Ooh, this is spongy right here. And I'm like, ooh, that's not good. Because my first thought was the roof was going to be the issue. Obviously, the roof is leaking and it's contributing to the issue. But it's that floor where you could step right through it and break the leg. You know, or maybe twist an ankle or maybe it's not that extreme, but still who wants to go through that? If you're going to look at a house and so a lot of times it's really difficult to know the condition of the you might be able to do externally kind of view it. But it'll be really hard until you clear some of that clutter or, you know, do something. So you're actually able to access the wall or the air vent or the heating system or whatever it is. And it can be a real challenge. If you're a landlord, or someone like dealing with failing or that hordes like maybe those people own the home, and you don't have as much leverage as to the actions that need to be taken often. So I would say, in some cases, you really can't tell what's going on until you move some of that stuff out of the way, or they allow you to do it. And I would say, if you ever have that conversation with someone that has a hoarding issue, and you want something specific done, you have to very clearly articulate what needs to happen by when, and it has to be very, you know, if I, if you say, I want to access all windows by, you know, the 24th of February, then you need to tell them that, you know, and be very specific about, you need a 36 inch path or whatever you need. I mean, some people will go so far as to put down tape and say all your stuff needs to be on this side of the line. And that visual cue is what they need. But it can be really challenging to walk into some of these and go, I don't even know what to offer on this house, because I can't even tell you what's going on with it. Yeah, I don't even know.

Keith McKeever 31:33

I mean, I can tell you, I would I would advise a client to, you know, it's all about their risk. But maybe wait till the property is cleaned down, that person's gone. Or, you know, do it at their own risk. I mean, I sure would find it difficult to suggest somebody to violent buying investment property if the tenant is in there hoarding, you know, do you really want to take down on as an investment not knowing the full condition of the property when that person is going to get out? Like? And my first thought is, like, you know, first thing you should do is check the safety the building, like, is it safe for you to be in? Is it safe for that person to be in long term or the next tenant or next owner, whatever. But, you know, there's obvious things you can check but but I'm saying be my first thought do check the safety stuff first, and then see what you're dealing with. Like said, You got to get in first. So

Tammi Moses 32:20

that the safety piece is really a good starting point. Also, if you're trying to have a conversation with your loved one or a client, you know that you're concerned about their safety, that you see the extension cords going through the piles, you know, there's a trip hazard, and really kind of taking the blame away, and not saying you know, we're gonna clean it all up, you're lazy, you're this, you're that, oh, really negative things that no one wants to hear if you come into their space. And obviously, you may see there's a huge issue. But even if you can kind of navigate from a safety perspective, it takes some of the blame and some of the pressure and guilt shame piece out of the equation a little bit. Just figuring out how you can have that conversation. And sometimes, like you mentioned, you come in later in the in the journey, you know, they've already maybe addressed it, they've already started and then then you're able to advise your client who is trying to sell their mom's house or whatever it is. But I would say also, like you're mentioning about the investors is to be very cautious about stepping into some of these situations if you aren't able to get in there. And of course, now, with everything going on, there's inspections that haven't been done, and there's lots of things that you might have been doing and have stopped doing. And so how is that impacting the quality of your asset? You know, how is that impacting it? If you own property, you need eyeballs on there once in a while, you know, I've seen it where the tenant didn't report that they had a water heater that flooded. But the landlord also never replaced anything for whenever it broke. And even if your tenant didn't report it over a 10 year period, like the stove might need an upgrade carpet has a life span. Like there's things that you can do to get in there and make sure your space is okay. And I think it falls on both sides to have a better plan around how are you reviewing the condition of your properties, you know, and is the person you're working with actually going in once in a while to check whatever legal thing you can.

Keith McKeever 34:44

Yeah, I think it's easy for investors who have rental property. If you have tenants that are, you know, in there for six months or a year and they're out and you're getting somebody else in there. You're probably in there and you're checking all those things. It's probably the tenants who've been in there for five years too. years 15 I once knew a lady locally who my mother's my business partner and we, we went to this investment property, a couple different houses on the lot. And she was in the upstairs unit had been up there since before I was born. And you know, look, I mean, great tenant, she took care of everything. She even told the landlord don't even bother changing out my carpet. I don't care, I'm fine with your carpet. It was in the 70s. You know, but you know, but those are the kind of tenants you really need to keep an eye on, are they okay? They're making their payments every single month. They're, they're not causing problems, they're not causing noise. They hardly ever call you, they just send in your check. Like that's what you want as a landlord. But that's when the red flags start going off and say, Okay, I've been in there in 10 years. And I know that that that stove in there is 15 years old. Mm hmm. So those don't, you know, sometimes won't last that long. They don't make them like they used to, you know, the water heater, in my area. And in central Illinois, a water heater can last you know, six to 12 years. And I know some communities around here where you'll be lucky to get one to last a year. Because the waters you know, bad enough in some areas. So you got to know like what the condition of the property is how old is the furnace, the air conditioning, you gotta go check on those things. Because sometimes will even tell you when they're wrong. They'll just live in there and and badmouth you for your they ever fix the air conditioning, even though they never told you about the air conditioning being you know, being broken. They just lived with it for two years. But yeah, those I think those are the ones that you really have to, to keep a closer eye on. And another thing you said that I think really should be hammered home to anybody's paying attention is being positive, not negative. And it's not necessarily I mean, I don't think anybody consciously just wakes up someday and says, I'm just going to start hoarding something, and I'm going to ruin my property, ruin my asset here. And gain causes big issue and division in my family, oh, I'm just gonna purposely do that. I don't think people do that. There's, there's a mental health. I mean, if they do that, seemingly on purpose, there's probably an underlying mental health issue. But it's important to be positive, and let people know like, maybe the situation is out of control, like massively out of control. But it's okay. Here we are. Here today, here's what the condition is, we need to make sure that this is safe for you. And we, we're here to help you, and assist you, however we can, in making the situation better. Because, you know, it's probably in most situations, you know, a family member or a loved one, or that landlord or, you know, owners probably gonna get somebody involved to try and help them out and ease the tensions, but let them know that you're there for them, you love them, you appreciate them, let's work together. And try and tackle this. Because a lot of times, I mean, like I said earlier, you don't watch the 40 shows on TV, but they bring a family members in and they get really heated. And I'm sure it's that way in reality, but you know, that's just not how you get things done. You know, you don't just pour gasoline on a fire, like, and I think negativity, you know, and coming at things the wrong way without love and support and getting people the resources they need is pouring gasoline on fire, it's gonna blow up in your face. And then you got a bigger problem.

Tammi Moses 38:11

And you end up destroying, I mean, I've seen so many relationships destroyed because of stuff and the isolation that comes because people can't bring their grandkids over, they can't interact or have friends over or, I mean, any of that stuff is very dehumanizing. And I have watched a few of the shows, they're hard for me because I can almost smell what they're like. And it's just, but I would say the trauma and the drama. And some of that tension is really real, if you aren't coming at it from a perspective of, hey, let's make sure all the people are okay in this situation. And for me, I like to see, like, can we all the humans that are all involved here have a conversation about what needs to happen, and including, hopefully the person with the issue because it is their stuff. And despite the fact that they may have too much stuff, it's still theirs, and they kind of want control over whatever's going on. And, you

Keith McKeever 39:22

know, in some ways they should, it's their stuff, they should have control over it. You shouldn't just be you know, once you got a court order or something crazy like that, but

Tammi Moses 39:31

and sometimes it takes to actually resolve some of these issues. And it's kind of a, a bone of contention that I have is how long some of these situations go on before any action is taken. And it's generally not until it's a crisis, not until someone's getting out of a hospital or recovery or, like it's, you know, there's all of a sudden there's rodents, or all of a sudden you discover Room, they've been there, but you just discover they've been here for a little while they've you know, you'll see the residue in their tracks and their poop and everything else.

Keith McKeever 40:09

But like Stewart little babies coming away even like, Hey, I'm a mouse on here. I want a

Tammi Moses 40:15

shoe box. Yeah,

Keith McKeever 40:17

I'm moving in now, like, yeah, they've been there for a while.

Tammi Moses 40:20

And so all of a sudden, now you're dealing not only maybe with your parents health crisis, or attendance, health crisis, now you're dealing with the property that you haven't looked at in a long time, their stuff is in there, maybe they have a pet. Who knows, like, all of a sudden, you're diving into this, and I get in our country, we are very protective of our rights. And we get to live how we want and we get to, and I've heard it many times, people that hurt, oh, we're not hurting anyone. I'm not hurting anyone, I'm going to live the way I want. Yeah, until the first responder has to try to get you out of your house. And they can't get in your house because the door won't open. And they can't get the gurney in. And now their lives are at risk because of this. And Well, thankfully, my my parents place got to the point where my dad actually was removed by EMS. And it was a good thing because I had already tried other interventions, other people had tried, and we didn't get anywhere. And so they gave him three more years. That's how I look at it. Because they got him out and other eyeballs had finally seen the space. And he had moved to a nursing facility and complained every day he was there that he wanted to go home. And it wasn't possible, given his care needs, given the size that he was given the fact that he didn't want to do anything he should as far as medication or anything. But it was one of those things where now he could have friends over people stop by to visit people would bring in books. And he wasn't stuck in a recliner, in a hoard that he could barely navigate through on the goat paths to the bathroom. I mean, and I read something today about people getting upset about people talking about their personal stories to garner business, or whatever. And I was like, you know, we need to talk about this. And we need to be having these conversations. And when I decided to start talking about this, I didn't realize how public I was going to get. It wasn't my intent to blab about hoarding, like I joined the military to get away from that whole thing no one had to know. And then later, I started stepping into what can I do about housing? What can I do about homelessness and affordable housing, which there's a huge lack of in our country, what can I do in my community. And I started to see the correlation between hoarding and homelessness and how it can lead to eviction and how it can destroy property. And oh, by the way, let's look at the mental health issues that are involved. And let's look at all the industries that are impacted. And honestly, real estate people are really keyed into it, because you might show a house that's gorgeous. And then they look over the fence and they're like, What's going on over there? So how do you sell a property that has those kind of houses around it? I mean, every time I talk about this, it's like the onion gets bigger. There's so many layers.

Keith McKeever 43:30

You know, the house thing is interesting, because here's, here's my thoughts on that. You know, it's I've told people before in situations like that, where they're like, oh, you know, I really liked this house. But look across the street or look behind me or next to me or whatever. And it's like, look, this is the condition today. That's what the neighbor is like. There's no talent, nobody has a crystal ball. I can't tell you, nobody can tell you if that person is going to be here in two years, or five years or 10 years. You know, yeah, you can look some things up and say, Okay, maybe it's a tenant, maybe this person is eventually gonna get kicked out and cleaned up. But then you don't know who's gonna move in after that. Same thing with a house in a good neighborhood and all the houses look great around it. You can't, you can't control when your neighbor next door across the street puts their house up for sale, and then somebody moves in and a year or two down the road. Now you got a hoarding situation that you didn't see coming. You can't control it. It is what it is. But you said something about like victims, you know, like, I'm not hurting anybody. Yeah, you could be hurting police, the fire department, the EMTs you know, city inspectors or whatever it's come by or, you know, whatever. You could be hurting them, but you could also be hurting the property values in your neighborhood. Mm hmm. You know, I come I live in a state where the property taxes are extremely outrageous. And, you know, and the cost of living is pretty good, but in some places, like I mean, it's gonna hurt everybody. But there's some places it's gonna hurt way worse than others in certain neighborhoods, and people are not going to be happy, if you're that person that has made their that, you know, shrunk the equity in their home by a massive amount, they're just not going to be happy. You know, and you know, you want your neighbors to be happy? Well, you have a problem or that weird, like tension between you and your neighbors, like, oh, there goes the order from down the street, like, nobody wants that. You won't be able to get along with your neighbors and you know, have the neighborhood be nice and safe. And you got kids to like, think about that, like, if you've got kids live next door or whatever, and you're playing, and they run into somebody's yard and step on something, or run past something and slice their arm open on a piece of rusty equipment. Well, you then you got a potential lawsuit right there because you, you know, you had those that and those things can happen to anybody. You know, even if you had a swing set in your backyard, and that was it, and you weren't a hoarder, and somebody gets hurt on it because neighbor kid was playing, don't be wrong, but you open yourself up to more of a chance of having issues. And it's

Tammi Moses 46:03

more of a danger for you and for your if you have people that visit or anything like you are opening that door that wouldn't ordinarily be open, if you have vacant vehicles with the doors hanging open and you know, things hanging off the hinges. And I mean, it's very real. And some of the situations that people who go to help can be harmed in those situations. And it's, for me, it's part of like, understanding. A lot of times I'll start the conversation with Hello, how are you? And people are like, Why are you asking me? Well, how's your breathing? Do you have asthma? Do you have a respirator? Do you have gloves? Do you have coveralls, you could wear and take off when you leave, like, all of a sudden you have all these things that you could do to protect yourself. But our mindset is we just want to help we don't think, hey, there's these hazards that I could encounter. And I need to figure out, am I prepared to do that, and I see it with volunteer organizations to where were you you think you're gonna go in and put down new linoleum for somebody and you go in there and you're like, Um, is there a floor like you, there's no way you could do the task you were going to do, because of the condition of the space, you might, you know, it would take you all day to move the stuff, let alone, get to the floor, whatever you're doing. And so even that I see people who their client, they're kind, they want to help, but then they don't realize what they're walking into with a hoarding situation. And a lot of people. I'm in some adult children, reporter groups and things like that, for my own sanity. And anyway, I have my own group around the hoarding solution and all that. But there's times when you need to decompress and have a conversation with someone who understands what this is, without having to explain a whole lot. And without fear of judgment. And even as the adult kid people will say, Well, how come you let your parents live this way? Hmm, we're adults, they kind of have been choosing this. A my choices are intervene and be basically disowned, or figure out some way to have a relationship without stepping into that heavy role until you have to and it but it's really hard when you see someone you love, or a tenant or a neighbor, like, it's really hard to see someone living in an environment like that, when you know, it could be better and different than what it is. And they will allow nothing to happen to make it better. And it's so frustrating as a family member in particular, to see that and not be able to take some sort of action. And so now, now I have this tool where someone tells me what I need to do, I will just say, well tell me what you know about hoarding. And then I just then I'm quiet to see what they have to say. And usually it's well, I've seen the shows. Okay, let's have an educational moment, because that's great. But that's only the beginning of what we're dealing with here.

Keith McKeever 49:22

Yeah, I mean, all they're doing is bringing family members together. Let's get this cleaned out. Let's assess this. They throw trying to through you know, all the drama moments they can in there for TV. But it doesn't show what what else needs to be done of fixing the property and doing these things are addressing mental health issues. Mm hmm. That that are done

Tammi Moses 49:41

or who who've worked on those shows and talk about some of that behind the scenes like you're only seeing snippets of it. And but all the work behind the scenes that goes into it is huge amounts of days of labor and intensive counseling and all that look, there's so much more behind it. And so while it's good, it's almost like a public service like, hey, this problem exists. But there's so much more around I personally feel earlier intervention in earlier mitigation efforts, that would reduce the need to have a show as frequently perhaps,

Keith McKeever 50:23

you know, honestly, like if we just had less of a stigma in this country about mental health, and people go get the help they need for their trauma could have a direct impact on just, you know, on all these issues. So you kind of talk about family, this is another question I had. So if somebody out there is listening, and they have a family member, that's in a situation, that's that would be considered hoarding? How should they go about starting that conversation with their family member? I know, we kind of talked about safety, you know, but maybe how do they approach that first?

Tammi Moses 50:55

I think in part, it depends on what is your existing relationship right now with that person. And some people may have gone low contact or no contact for their own reasons. But you might still be saying emergency contact somewhere. And now, you know, the property manager calls you and says, Hey, you know, your your parents is living XYZ, you need to come clean it up. And so, in that case, I would be asking that property manager, you know, are we looking at eviction? Like, is that what we're talking about? Or are we talking about, hey, this needs to be taken care of, and this person can remain here. And then I would talk to that your parent or your person that you're getting a call about? And just start having a conversation about how are you? You know, are you getting the food you need? How's your friend? How's your cat and start having a conversation and then kind of gauge gauge where they're at? And see if they're gonna tell you anything?

Keith McKeever 52:00

Come out. They're like, No, I'm fine. Cats fine. Dogs. Fine. Yeah, Everything's peachy. Except for they're gonna kick me out,

Tammi Moses 52:06

you know, they're gonna kick me out. Or they might tell you to hurry at the tail end of the call that that's what's going on at the door. Yeah, you're just like, Okay, we've been talking for an hour, or maybe you should have told me that 30 minutes ago. Because, you know, but, and then I will just, I would just lead into and say, Well, you know, I love you, I care about you, I had a call from Sally, the property manager, and they have some concerns about, you know, how your apartment is right now. So can you tell me, you know, tell me more about your apartment, and leave it kind of open ended and see if they say anything about no room in the fridge, or I haven't taken a bath in two months, or, like, listen to some of those cues. Because that could tell you that either a they might be afraid of slipping in the tub or be they maybe can't use it because it's full of stuff. So just kind of really asking more open ended. And and, and non threatening and being positive, which can be very hard to do. But you kind of want to keep that door open for communication. And something a lot of times people don't think about, and I know people have private space and all that. But if you do happen to walk in there and see it, and say you need to have a discussion with the doctor or social services, take a few photos and say, Look, this is what I'm talking about. This is what we're dealing with. And this is why she can't go home after surgery next week, like you. And because people honestly don't even believe that it can be that bad. Like they think someone needs to sort their mail. And what you're really saying is they haven't sorted their mail in five years, and it's all over their apartment. I mean, there's a huge difference in what you're talking about, if that person doesn't have any idea, and I've actually had a medical doctor tell me, Hey, we get no training on any of this. Like, it's not even part of the conversation around what they would talk about with their clients or their clients with their patients.

Keith McKeever 54:17

Sad, because they asked you, you know, they asked you how much you work out. They asked you about your diet, because that's all factor. But they do ignore the environment that you're in. And there's homeless has different medical issues that could be related to homelessness, right? He's not somebody who's in a hoarding situation is gonna have different environmental concerns and someone who's not so that is that never thought about that. But that would be something good for, for them to get some training on.

Tammi Moses 54:44

And I'm all about educating people. And you can have even have had these discussions to where you have highly educated folks who are in some of these care roles, and they have already issues themselves and so if you start hearing about it, that means you have to kind of face your issues too sometimes. And so I think that's part of the challenge is, is, all of us have an issue of some kind. And many people struggle with mental health issues. And but people don't seek the treatment or the help, because they're afraid of the stigma, they're afraid of being judged. They're afraid of losing their job. They're like, there's all this fear around. If I get the help I need, what am I going to lose by doing that? And we, we expect people to get treatment for diabetes and cancer, and other health issues, you know, kidney, like, our brain is all connected to all of that to like, why is there a whole pic like the whole thing, the whole thing? And, and I realize this may be a little extreme, but sometimes I look at hoarding, and I think it's suicide by stuff. Like you're just drowning and suffocating. And getting nowhere and you're isolated and sad. And like, and not everyone is some people hide it? Well, it's never brought up, they don't talk about it. You know, but if you have some kind of mental health issue, whatever that is, facing it alone is really scary and challenging and hard. And I personally spent three years in therapy, working through trauma, and oh, by the way, I grew up in this hoarding thing, and what the hell is that about? And oh, yeah, I got this, I married someone who didn't have good boundaries, either. And I didn't have good boundaries. But you know, it was like this big hole thing that I I spent quite a bit of time working through to get to a place where I could go, Okay, I went through all this stuff. Now, is there a purpose? Why would I go through all this if there's not a purpose. And so that's kind of how it's come full circle for me to be talking about it more and to be addressing it because it, there are so many components, and so many people impacted. And like you mentioned, in the beginning, 19 million people, hello, that's a lot of people in just our country alone. And that's an estimate, because people under report,

Keith McKeever 57:19

you know, I was gonna say the same thing, I was gonna reiterate that number of 19 million or about 6%. Like, just picture driving down your road, the next 100 houses you pass, six of them would be statistically, like you said, under reported, are in some sort of a hoarding situation. And I would probably not be surprised if it's probably closer to 10. Because it's like mental health and other things. People just don't want to report that. Like, it'd be embarrassing. And I think a lot of people are probably conscious of that, that it's embarrassing. The reason that they want, you know, I have people over.

Tammi Moses 57:56

But but then being that's a lot of people. And being aware of it, you know, I've had some talks with some of the fire fighters and some of the people who, you know, their whole thing is intent is to show up and rescue. And if you can't do that, that impacts your mental health. And my perspective is, you showed up, that was your job. Now, you may not have able been able to get in, or access or ingress egress, you know, when you have extra clutter, it changes the trajectory of the fire, it burns hotter, there's a lot more inherent risk. And so I have seen, you know, big burly people, who are firefighters tear up over that person that couldn't get out of the house. And, but it happens in case you know, other situations as well, where you did everything you could, and you could not execute, saving their life. But that doesn't mean you failed, it means you showed up and did what you could what you were supposed to what the plan was. And we all know that you can have a plan and then you show up at the battle and it doesn't go that way. And you end and so just for me, finding a way to reassure people that you did do what you were sent to do. And please don't be a statistic on the other side of suicide that you do that because you couldn't do execute the plan. Like please don't be that person because you did everything you could in that moment. And for me that's like, anyway, I have a whole story about how I experience fire and stuff as a kid and it took me years to be like, Oh, okay, the coffee pot maybe isn't going to blow up today because I left it plugged in. You know.

Keith McKeever 59:57

It'd be tough to be a first responder and have to deal with On a regular basis, you know, I was security forces in the Air Force. And, you know, a little over five years of doing that I knew I didn't want to do law enforcement on the outside, but I've got a lot of first responders in my family. And you know, it, I don't know how they, hopefully they're getting the mental health help that they need for dealing with death on a regular basis, because let's face it, the fire department and the police don't show up, when everything's going good, right, they don't show up to the, to the, to the barbecue. For the food, they show up, because somebody caught their house on fire. Right. And, you know, it's got to be very mentally taxing to deal with people who have died all the time. But I can only imagine what that what that does for you, we you realize you lost somebody that you otherwise could have gotten to, because of something that was preventable, it can in some way, some shape or form. If that person wasn't hoarding, they could have got that back bedroom and pulled them out. Or that person could have got themselves out, or whatever the case may be. And, you know, with that, like, you know, talking earlier about victims, and it just kind of hit me like fires, like, you know, apartment complex, you know, there there, there is other potential victims. If you have an apartment, and it's horrible, and it catches fire, well, guess what, soda, probably the apartments next to you, and above and below you, and all their stuff is, at a minimum, probably smoking, smoke damage, and they've lost all their stuff. Maybe their lives, maybe their pet, you know, hopefully not, but it's an unfortunate reality. You know, then you got you know, infestations of mice, animals, bedbugs, you know, I mean, all kinds of different things that can happen when you don't have a clean environment that's impossible to clean. And, you know, there's there's always potential victim there somewhere. So, you know, that's some good advice on family member, but what should somebody do, then if they're a neighbor, and they've realized that situation next door behind him, whatever is a hoarding situation, things gotten out of control? What should they do? Who should they reach out to?

Tammi Moses 1:02:15

I would say, somewhat gauging your relationship with your neighbor. If you have always had a cordial relationship, then you might be able to say, you know, you know, Mary, I noticed that, like, there's a lot of things that are collecting outside of your, your house on your porch, like, how are you? Can you get in that door? Is that okay for you? Or are, you know what, what's going on, and you don't have room anymore. And they may or may not talk to you about it. But just having that an engaging conversation, I think helps that person know, you're not out to get him or you don't want the worst for them. But it can be very challenging, because that person again, may say, Well, I don't have a problem, and I'm not hurting anyone. And there are times when people will report to their city authorities or county like, Hey, this is a nuisance, this is a hazard. What can we do about this situation? And sometimes that doesn't always go well. And I and there are times when they'll say, Well, I'll just put up a fence. So you can't see it. There's a disconnect in how we handle that situation is, in particular, authorities will say we need to cleaned up by this date, that person does nothing. People might end up being threatened with jail because of the condition of their home. And we're totally missing that mental health piece. And that the fact that has taken 30 years to get here, how are we going to fix that in 30 days. So it there it is important to have that conversation and keep that door open if you possibly can. If you are not able to and you have severe concerns about that, you can have a wellness check done, you can say I have concerns about this property. The biggest time I see what action happens is if there's a rodent situation, and that starts going into other people's homes and things like that, and even then there are entities that aren't prepared to intervene, like they'll find the person but no action happens. So the person the neighbor is still ending up dealing with the road into their house or their whatever. And that for me is where I see there needs to be some education and a lot of different industries about what you're actually dealing with. And I can go off on that. But I would say trying to keep the conversation open and going If you can, is really valuable. But often it's an outside force that causes that change to happen. And so sometimes you end up having to force the issue by calling some sort of authority, or you can call Adult Protective Services you can call Child Protective Services. I haven't necessarily seen it resolve anything immediately. But at least they're aware

Keith McKeever 1:05:27

and get the ball rolling. And that's why I wanted to ask that question, because I know not everybody has a great relationship with their neighbor or not know that well, you know, like, my neighbors, I know, a couple of my neighbors pretty well. And I've got some neighbors that take me out on their boat before. Yeah, they invited us over for the birthday party for their puppy dog. So like, you know, you know, your neighbors at different levels. So I, I was kind of thinking, you know, some questions to ask. And I was like, I don't know how I would address that. You know, you have a good point, though. Like if there's children in the house. And you know, like, there's a problem there, child protective services might be an option. Or Protective Services, or if you haven't heard from that person for a while you've seen come out of the house, go to the grocery store. Now, maybe wellness check is good. That happened down the street for me, I had a neighbor fall three, four doors down. I use three for remember, I don't go down that direction that end. But you know, it was kind of the eyesore of the neighborhood for a long time. And everybody kind of knew it. And all of a sudden, it was a wellness check. One day, I remember the deputies going by, and you know, she was I think she was medically fine. They got her out of the house, but wouldn't let her back in. And a couple months later, the house got demolished. And what do I have right after that mice never really had mice problems before that, all of a sudden had them. And, you know, it took a little while to get that under control until they were you know, I think everybody around us finally got them all trapped, or the best we could but you know, it was like a whole year after that we're finding the mouse every now and then like what like, seriously, we'd been here for like four or five years, like not a single mouse. And all of a sudden the house gets demolished. And I know the company that did it. And it was multiple dumpsters, it was yeah, it was bad. They said it was pretty bad. But you

Tammi Moses 1:07:11

know, well, and that's a good thing about how critters start migrating to your house because I live close to military housing and a few and a few years ago, they demoed older and put in new, and all of a sudden, all of us across the road, like a mile of it were get funding in your yard in your crawlspace. And you're like, where did all this come from, but it was because of the demo work that had happened and some of the environment and and that's one of the things is if you find a problem, you would generally deal with it, you'd buy a trap, you figure out where they're getting in, you would mitigate that and stop it. And you often can't do that in a an extreme Hoard. Because you can't figure out where they're coming in, let alone how to stop it. And

Keith McKeever 1:07:58

that's it was hard in my house, figuring out where all the little holes are, you know, because most can, they can squeeze into a little tiny area. And, you know, we went around and plugged everything I had to local, you know, I know the enroller and all the termite pest guy, so I had had my guys come over, you know, we're setting out traps, and you know, just trying to get under control. And, you know, still to this day, I mean, it's been a couple of years. And you know, we still have traps out, and why check them every now and then just just keep an eye on it. Because you never know, and I don't live. I mean, I grew up out in the country where cornfields were around. And that's understandable, you know, you're gonna have mice and rodents and cornfields. I'm in the middle of town, there's no fields nearby. It didn't come from that. It was pretty obvious exactly where this came from. So you know, and that's

Tammi Moses 1:08:40

just another example of how that whole situation is impacting other people. Even though the person with the actual issue doesn't want to claim there's an issue. And like you said, some people kind of know, like, they sense it, it's there's a shame, there's a, I won't let anybody in. But they also won't allow anything to be different. So you know, it can get really frustrating. And that's why sometimes a family member is the last person that actually wants to deal with it. Because there's so much emotional stuff going on between family members and parents and some siblings may not see it this way, and others might. And there's just like this whole family dynamic that makes it really difficult to manage it. And I've just seen how difficult that can be. And that's why I'm like, well, we can talk about it. We can make a plan. We can do all this stuff. We can pull together the resources. So you have what you need to move forward, however you want to do that. And that's where I think it's really important to have a space to talk about it. Without any kind of judgment going on. It's all about tell me what's going on. Tell me you're in desire. And even if you're the person that hoards like, tell me what you're doing, are you moving? Are you downsizing? Are you going to assisted living? Do you not care what happens is there one precious thing we're looking for, and just really keying into that, and I know a couple companies now where that is their business model, they will buy it as is sorted, deal with it and get you the things that you want out of that property. And that can be so helpful, because it's can be very emotional, you're already going through grief, you've lost a parent, you've lost a loved one. And now you have to go deal with all the stuff to like, Hello, could I do one thing at a time, that's definitely

Keith McKeever 1:10:42

you know, because that person has got to be willing to just walk away from a property, go live somewhere else, let them come in and do their thing. And, and, and hope they get what you recover what you need.

Tammi Moses 1:10:52

And you hope that you're hiring someone that's going to respect your wishes and do what you want. But it's also a solution, if you don't even like it wasn't a family home, you, you don't really like you only want to know where you know where dad's guns were like, that's all you care about, or his instruments, or mom's jewelry or China or whatever. Like, and honestly, a lot of times people that hoard are very generous. But a lot of that stuff isn't something you'd want to be have donated, you don't you would just throw it out anyway. And so if you're in a position where you have good quality things, you might be able to sell them, you might be able to have a an auction company come in, you know, you do have options. But often if it's not good condition you're dealing with, you know, you need a shovel in a dumpster, basically. And it so it can really vary on what's going on in that situation. And I know people that either a won't work with someone that hoards or be are totally keyed in to how that whole process works. And there there is, I understand why people don't want to step into some of these things. Because I didn't talk about it for years, I never imagined in a million years that one day, I would sit around and talk about hoarding things and try to help others understand the big picture around it. And and it's part a lot of people don't talk about it, and I get the shame the stigma that why don't you fix it. I heard that even as a kid. And I'm like, Well, I'm 12. Like, how are you going to do? Well, you want me to do like, already figured out, if I move this stuff to put up a tree, the Christmas tree, there's going to be crying and drama. So I don't, I'll put up a tree in my own room where I won't let anybody else go. Because no one's gonna give me any grief about it. But as a kingdom

Keith McKeever 1:12:42

you got you got ways to wrap yourself around your parents fingers and get them to do things for you that you want. But there's a limit

Tammi Moses 1:12:48

to that. Yes,

Keith McKeever 1:12:52

there is a limit to it.

Tammi Moses 1:12:54

And if you are a person, whether you're married to that person, or you're a kid, or you're a roommate, which I've had that come up, it's perfectly okay to say your stuffs not coming in my room. All shared spaces will be hard for you. Like it's okay to have some boundaries around that. And I always heard the other side of that, well, you can have your room, I'm gonna hoard the rest of the house. And I'm like, why don't we do it the other way around, you can hoard that room, or that garage or whatever, but the rest of the space is not going to have this excess of clutter. And as a kid, that's kind of what I ended up doing. Like this is my room. None of your stuffs coming in here. I don't care what it is. And for me, I now understand that I was fighting for a hoard free clutter free space. And it can be very anxiety producing to be around a lot of clutter. And a lot of people who've grown up that way you kind of go one way or the other. You either go Yeah, the cluttered, it's not a big deal. Or you go nope, zero. Some of us I would say I kind of fall in the middle where I can tolerate it for a bit. But then that's it. Like it has to be cleared off and dealt with and just done. Like I can't go for extended periods of time without dealing with it.

Keith McKeever 1:14:25

Yeah, I think that's pretty similar. Just about yanked my earbuds out there. I think it was pretty similar to a lot of people that you know, grew up in different different environments, you know, outside of drug abuse, physical sexual abuse, you know, things like that, like, you know, there's old saying, like, apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Yeah. Sometimes it does. Well, you know, every every person has to grow up and come to terms of things themselves and say, am I going to fall into the same trap and do the same thing because it's safe and it's comfortable? Or in my soul pissed off and angry about it? There's no way I'm gonna let myself get to that You know,

Tammi Moses 1:15:01

and your mindset, both ways, it comes so much down to your mind around, what kind of life do you want to create. And at the time, I didn't even realize that I was making choices that helped me make a life I wanted to create and be different than the environment and how I, how I experienced life. And, but I also, a lot of those things I've been able to pull into, I feel like being a kinder human being less judgmental about whatever situation is happening for my friends or my family, like, I'm like, and I've had this discussion, I'm like, you know, where I grew up, right? Like, this is Taj Mahal compared to that, you know. And so as you create space for other people to share their story, it's kind of a cleansing of your own. But it's also creating the space for people to feel comfortable to share what's going on with them, and to be very real, and raw and authentic. And sometimes, some days are really hard. When you're showing up that way. Other days, you can tolerate it a little better. And it comes down also to some self care, and what are your boundaries and, you know, making sure you're okay to deal with your clients to deal with your business partners, or your kids or wife or whatever. Like, it's really valuable to look at your own mental health and your own situation, so that you're more prepared to walk into some of these things. And it took me a bit to get keyed into that. But it's, I think it's really valuable when you start to figure out, I can pour from a full cup, how do I do that? How do I shore myself up, so that I show up fully for people? And it kind of comes back to putting your own mask on first, like, how are you doing that? First, and being aware that you need to do it, and it's not selfish. I mean, you could obviously carry it to an extreme, but it's not selfish, to be solid, where you're at, and then it just helps you be better in all aspects of your life. And it's, it's been helpful for me to find groups and people and just understanding that it's really valuable to have people around you to not go through all these things alone. And there's too many of us that try to do it all by ourselves and feel like we don't like we don't have the connections or support. And once you start finding that it's super valuable.

Keith McKeever 1:17:54

Absolutely. I couldn't agree with more of that, like you got to there's other people on your journey. Sometimes you need to reach out to help, like, by podcast, battle buddy podcast, like that's the whole point. Let people know that they're not alone. That there's other people that have been in the situation like you know, you shouldn't have to be alone. That's the first thing they teach you in the military. I you know, I don't know what the Navy Air Force was wingman security forces like I was they kind of talk about battle buddy, too. Don't go anywhere that your battle, buddy. You know, I know the army does, I don't know. But the Marines in the Navy who knows if the case Coast Guard

Tammi Moses 1:18:30

you versus

Keith McKeever 1:18:32

battle battle buddy or something for the Space Force, whatever they call it.

Tammi Moses 1:18:36

But you're gonna have like, a Liberty buddy or something, you know, you're supposed to be out with someone and where you go with the two people? Yeah, you're supposed to. And there's a couple times where I didn't do that. And I was like, I need to get back on the train because I should not be on this border right here.

Keith McKeever 1:18:57

It sounds like a whole nother story for another day. I think all of us has certainly got a story like that. But you know, me like men. mindset. Mindset is so much of everything like you, you have to be aware, you have to reflect enough to realize that you either need mental health help, or you need to constantly improve like you should. And I know not everybody really looks at life like that. But you should always have that mindset of improving and pushing your boundaries and become stronger, more resilient. You know, and sometimes you need that help. So you need that that bottle buddy, whether that's your spouse, your loved one, your kids, your social, social worker, whatever the case is, like, sometimes you need it. Sometimes you need a hand, you know the hand up, so that's really, really important.

Tammi Moses 1:19:47

No shame, there should be no shame in it. You know, there should be just like, hey, I'm having a rough time. Or, hey, you know, thanks for sharing that with me or, you know, it's in really learning that It's okay to ask for help. And, and it's okay to not be okay sometimes. And there's

Keith McKeever 1:20:06

a whole self help section in the library, or the books. Well, they sell books, I've been to a bookstore. Here's audible, you know, Barnes and Noble is still a thing. And I really don't know. But, you know, there's whole sections to self help. There's podcasts on it, there's audio books, like, you know, you should constantly be trying to improve your mental state, to, like I said, be more resilient, and be able to get through things because, you know, life's gonna hand you lemons, right? Yeah. Can make some lemonade,

Tammi Moses 1:20:39

lemonade. Lemon TV, or.

Keith McKeever 1:20:44

Or, That's not this kind of show. Tammy

Tammi Moses 1:20:47

lemon meringue pie is my thought. There you go. There we

Keith McKeever 1:20:50

go. Now, I get behind on the show, we'll just start eating. I'm not much of a drinker. But food, you got to get me on par there.

Tammi Moses 1:20:58

I need the full thing. I'm much more of a person than I am. Other things.

Keith McKeever 1:21:03

You know, if you're sure about drinking, I know a guy has got an upcoming podcast.

Tammi Moses 1:21:07

I do know guy.

Keith McKeever 1:21:11

So, back to this for we get off topic of drinking and eating because it sounds really good right now. Oh. So how should somebody really approach like the idea of helping somebody remove their Thanks? Good. I know, there's like a mental block like, these are my things. How should I do that? How do you try and break down that barrier? Do you look at things like, you know, prioritize?

Tammi Moses 1:21:33

So essentially, I try to keep it very simple. And because the decision making piece can be very overwhelming. And that's where people get stuck is I don't want to make a decision. If I do, I might miss out on something. And so I just do, is this something you're keeping? Is this something you're donating? Or is this something something you're discarding? And I try to avoid things like trash, throw away garbage junk. I mean, many of us use those words interchangeably. But if you're someone with a hoarding issue, those words can be very triggering. And so one way to start doing that is to sort very easily but the other piece is about detaching detaching from the item, remembering the story. And having someone you're working with that wants to hear the story can be really useful. And just recognizing that just because you don't have the purse anymore from Aunt Cathy, doesn't mean you've lost that connection with her. It just means you are you're relinquishing that item. And so I think, part of detaching, you could take a photograph, you could write down everything you know about it, you could pass it along to someone else who you want to have it while you're here, you're still in control of that decision that way. And just being being aware that attachment is huge. And that the reason people hold on to things is because of that emotional attachment. And if you can start talking about detaching, and ways to do that, you are gonna have a better chance of getting through to that person. But I mean, I, you can take three boxes and mark them keep donate discard, you can put a trash bag and each one, and then you just sort the items into it. And sometimes you may have a sell pile, or something like that. If you find things that belonged to other people have a box with their name on it, put stuff their stuff in it and say, hey, the next time you know, I see my kid, I'm going to hand him this box. And

Keith McKeever 1:23:49

here's your point, because they might have multiple kids or grandkids be hanging on you know, I know some people hang on to their kids artwork, my kids it happened. You know, keep that dad am i Dude, I can't keep all of the artwork you created here.

Tammi Moses 1:24:02

And you kind of have to be selective, like I've heard people describe is it fridge worthy? You know? Yeah, absolutely. And kids create all kinds of stuff, you know, and, and grandkids create lots of stuff and you don't want to lose that sentimental aspect. But you could also take a photograph of the item like you don't have to have the actual item which can be challenging to fake to decide that I don't need to have the actual thing but I'm just keeping it very simple. Keeping it very low key set, you know, doable things. Take, say I'm going to sort this basket tonight while I watch TV 15 minutes or you know, don't say I'm today I'm going to clean this room. And then at the end of the day, you got nothing done because you were overwhelmed. And you just open the door and shut the door. You didn't do anything.

Keith McKeever 1:24:58

Get back to kids. It's like you Well, I don't know where to start cleaning my room. You know, it's kind of the same thing. Like he was a grown up like, Oh, I'm gonna clean the garage today, bro just stacked all the way to the ceiling, you know, how do you do that? You can't like, where do you start? What box? Do you start with? Like? How do you how do you organize that.

Tammi Moses 1:25:16

And it takes a while for things to build up frequently. And so it's going to take a little time to go through it. And I just, you know, you could set a timer for 15 minutes and say, I'm going to do this for 15 minutes, I'm going to work on this box. Some people find it helpful to take that box to another space and be like, I'm going to sort this wherever, and getting your self out of the very cluttered space if you have that option. And so it's kind of finding what works for you, but not thinking you're gonna clean an entire house and an entire day. Like it's gonna take some time. And

Keith McKeever 1:25:51

yeah, Rome wasn't built in a day. Right? Right. It cut yourself some slack. Yeah, yeah, like I said, it takes years to build up to that point, you can't just go through and one day, you know, not unless you got a crew of five or six guys in the dumpster. And it can you just give them the green light to just, you know, grab it and toss it. That's the only thing I'm going to claim today.

Tammi Moses 1:26:10

Wish that sometimes that people that work would be a little more willing to allow that scenario to play out because it's very physically exhausting to be sorting through people's things like that, it can be very daunting to to be the on site person doing the talking through it and sorting it out. And so I definitely say it would be good to have at least one other person there that's actually working on Yeah,

Keith McKeever 1:26:40

I don't think people realize how much stuff they have in their house. I you know, I had a client a few years ago had a house fire. And you started in the garage about ready to move, they had boxes everywhere in a Bert basically the garage to the ground. So game a shot the whole house, but that's where I really got an education, you know, kind of talking to them, because they all they want to do is sell the house move, they're moving out of the area. And, you know, I had a very point blank conversations with them about what that process was like. And, you know, the insurance company wanted to know, literally, everything in the house. Now, they had a huge two story home of 24 2500 square feet above grade, they have five kids, I think at the time, and five kids and a dog, I was a lot close. Well, how could you ever itemize every single thing in your house I get? You know, and especially after a fire after everything's damaged, you don't know what's in there. Think about what you go to the grocery store and buy. You know, it's like, do you remember everything that you possibly had? No, no. So let you know, it's almost impossible. So I got one more question for you, Tammy. And before we went live, that I was going to try and stump you. So do you have any stories of helping somebody that was a major success that you can share? Or why it was me, you know, maybe why it was major success, or what the situation look like and what ended up as.

Tammi Moses 1:28:11

So I had a client who was she was dealing with cancer at the time. And that's kind of how the whole hoarding situation came to be. Because she had maintained her home. But physically her health went, whoo. And she could not and her spouse worked. And now he was also working and now a caregiver and trying to do all the things and they didn't ask for help for about a year until I came on the scene. And we were able to was over about a period of about a month. Few hours a session where we were able to find her craft room, clear it all out. She could get her wheelchair in there so she could actually craft in her craft room. And she was so happy because she had been so hesitant to have anybody come in there. And I just remember her saying I haven't had anybody come in here. I don't know if I should let you come in here. And seeing her face when she was able to take her was not a wheelchair but just like the little chair or electric chair that she could ride around in seeing her face when she was able to access her craft area again was it was priceless. You know, to see the progress and the labeling and the organizing and all the stuff we hauled out of that space and her health did improve somewhat. But the hoarding kind of came back But not because of her, the spouse actually had a pretty severe issue with it. And eventually she moved into not a camper, but basically a motorhome. And she was able to live her time in that uncluttered space. And just seeing the peace of mind that she was able to find was very a successful moment for her, I think to, to realize that she could have control over her environment, again, despite the health challenges. And it was, it was one of those things where you wish it hadn't gotten there. And how come home health didn't have something to offer someone overcoming something like cancer, and but overall, it was successful, because she was able to access her space again. And it was just a lesson for me to really focus on the person focus on their needs in that solution. So I counted as a success, because she, she kind of found sanity again. And that's what happens if you're in a space that's too cluttered. And then you start to clear it, you can regain some of that clarity.

Keith McKeever 1:31:35

That could be a huge, you know, emotional relief for her to, you know, to go through cancer, you know, it's yeah, my father died of cancer when I was young, I wasn't I was in high school. And so I know, you know, the ravages that can take on your body. And you know what it does to the people around you. But to complicate that, to be in a hoarding situation, I can't imagine. But just for the mentality to be able to fight something like that. And to have that, that probably played a factor, just have a win, like I have some normalcy back to doing something I love. It's a passion. And it probably translated into, you know, at least a greater will to try and fight it as long as you can. So that's a sounds like a good success to me. So now what change topic to the last three questions I ask every guest that is a Veteran. I'm always curious to see the responses of these three. And I think I told you before, what they were going to questions were going to be. So what, what piece of advice would you have for somebody that's looking to trans transition out of the military today, you know, for their success, or their transition, whatever? One piece of advice,

Tammi Moses 1:32:47

start planning early. Figure out what the next thing is that you want to do. I mean, most people want to throw away the alarm and drink your coffee. While it's hot. I get that. I totally get that. But also, what's your next step and start time flies, start planning early as early as you can, whether you're retiring or separating whatever steps you can take before that last day of terminal events, and you get your DD 214 Start planning way earlier. I wish I had

Keith McKeever 1:33:23

I think I think we all would well really I mean, I would almost say like two point like, you should almost start from the day you go in from from the D raise your right hand, you should know that your military career is going to end. Nobody stays in forever. I know if you look at some of the generals on TV looks like they've been in forever. You know, just muscle of generals and admirals. But yeah, you know, guys been in for 3035 years, it looks like forever. Um, but yeah, every time it comes to an end, you have to have the next plane next stage of your life. So that is a good one. Now, how about for those people, if they haven't happened, have any listeners that, you know, have any kids about to join military? Maybe they can share this with them? Or, you know, maybe somebody who's, you know, kind of caught on to my podcast here and curious, and they're thinking about joining, what advice would you have for them?

Tammi Moses 1:34:14

I would say, look at what you want to do. And see if there is some kind of school or program or something that you can enroll in, have that be part of your enlistment situation. It can help you not get stuck in some kind of role. You don't want to be in and look at, you know, ask and ask questions before you sign before you put your hand up. You're still in charge. Once you sign once you enlist, or you go into officer school or whatever you do, you're not in charge anymore. So ask a lot of questions before you make that decision.

Keith McKeever 1:35:02

That's a good one ask a lot of questions because I know I didn't ask a lot of questions. I was like, Cool. Give me that. Give me that gun. And that and that brain. Let me be a cop. I mean, they got me with a TV commercials. And I'll be honest with you, Rob Scott Air Force Base, they had ATVs. And we're like, who wants to get certified? I do barley. I saw the video a couple years ago, man, I really want to do this. And they're like, Yeah, you know, we're just gonna let the sixes and sevens get qualified. Longer. What's that?

Tammi Moses 1:35:39

Don't they need a driver? Sometimes?

Keith McKeever 1:35:41

Yeah, I mean, like, come on, like a four wheelers be fun. Anyway, last question here is, uh, you know, give you an opportunity to give a shout out to some sort of veteran organization club, Facebook group, whatever, you know, is there is there any organizations out there you think they're doing some good things that you'd like to give a shout out to?

Tammi Moses 1:36:02

I, personally have benefited a lot through that printer tribe. It helped me reengage with my inner veteran. I've made great connections through that group. In fact, you and I met through warrior Council, which is a subgroup of that. This isn't, in particular, a veteran group, but Make A Wish Foundation was instrumental when I was a kid, granting one of my brothers wishes. And so that has been very near to my heart. But I would definitely say that if you you have separated from the service, however, that is, and you're trying to get to your next level, find somebody find a group find someone who's on that journey. And, and can help you plan for your transition or your growth or your career. You know, there's there's a, Wow, there's so many organizations out there that can assist. And I didn't really recognize the the veteran aspect for quite a while after I had gotten out. So I mean, I didn't realize how many other people were on a similar path for quite a quite a few years. And wow, I have lots of names. I wish I had more groups.

Keith McKeever 1:37:42

There's a lot of out there. And like you said, there's like so many organizations that are trying, you know, nonprofits and just organizations clubs, Facebook pages, like there's a ton of them. I'm in a bunch it just having that connection. Yeah, back to the veteran community, I think is huge. And the transition process for sure. But just you know, even Well, after that, like he said, veteran manure tribe, I kind of figured you were probably going to go there. And that's where we met, you know, and yes, it's, you know, a lot of veteran entrepreneurs, but there's a lot of other people there, too, there's a lot of great conversations, resources, people put out their businesses, you know, so you can find veteran owned businesses, if that's just what you what your connection wants to be, that's a great place to find some veteran businesses that you can go out there support. And believe me, when I say there are almost endless different types of better businesses that are out there and be promote, you know, on that page, if you need some help you looking for something, that's a great place to post it. So somebody's got a service or business out there. So

Tammi Moses 1:38:42

and even if to work for someone who has a business or is looking for veteran experiences, you know, don't don't underplay your veteran experience, but also look at how you can translate to civilian terms, if you know, depending on where you're trying to get a job, because not everyone wants to go into the the fun of business ownership, which I understand. It can be kind of scary and uncertain, but you also don't have to go through any of that by yourself. So,

Keith McKeever 1:39:19

yeah, you have a good point about looking for like a job, you know, just just that, like, you know, I'm not in a position to hire anybody. But you know, if I was looking to hire somebody for whatever the job would be, you know, I would, you know, I'd be beyond excited to hire that because I understand the struggles transition, we could have a conversation. You know, depending on the job, obviously, you know, you might find it working for another Vet, the veteran owned business, they might give you the opportunity where you don't get harassed about having to leave for medical appointments to the VA. We're talking to a counselor, you know, getting the help you need, like just having that person around. So, you know, don't don't underestimate if anybody's out there looking for a job. I never thought about that for the entrepreneur. But you know,

Tammi Moses 1:40:01

that some people just get some advice like, Hey, I'm thinking about starting a business, what should I look out for? What should I do who who's done this? You know, and, and you can cut down on that learning curve by connecting with some people who have already been on that journey. And

Keith McKeever 1:40:19

there's definitely somebody in the group this journey, there's like 16,000 people in there probably growing, there's more we out there to talk about it cuz I was talking about on clubhouse there's a handful of rooms, the veterans network, that DP runs on there. And, you know, it's mentioned a lot, and it's probably helped it grow, you know, and there's strength in numbers. You know, you don't have to have just one battle buddy, you know, nothing wrong with joining the group, we got 16,000 of them. Right. So, you know, anyway, before we before we wrap this up, you know, I've got your your website down there at the bottom homes or for living calm, you know, there if anybody is out there, and they'd like to reach out to you would do is that the best way going through your website to try and contact you they need some services or somebody to talk to or some direction?

Tammi Moses 1:41:01

Yes, that is the best way. And I'm also on Instagram, I'm at the hoarding solution. And so I'm on there doing content. That is probably the best way to see all the different stuff I'm doing has links to the podcast, and blog and all that. And you can schedule a consultation there as well. So, but I'm going to give my phone number to it's 360-720-8401. And that's good to text or call. Sometimes text is best, I don't always have a great cell signal. But I get it. And some

Keith McKeever 1:41:43

pretty blanketed across the United States by now where they share art sometimes.

Tammi Moses 1:41:46

And I actually live in areas where there's like a dead zone, like I mean, I can travel from my house 10 miles away, and I'm like, I have nothing. Yeah, I

Keith McKeever 1:41:55

got a couple of those around here my area, there's certain places that are pretty much dead zones. So don't forget, you got your podcast to the hoarding solution. Podcast, a great way to listen

Tammi Moses 1:42:05

is on anchor and on Spotify, and always happy to have guests that are willing to talk about it. And or are even trauma, there's so many other things that come into it that that I'm just want to be a space to explore it, you know, and have those conversations and bring more awareness to these, to this and to mental health and D stigmatizing it so that everyone feels okay with the fact that they need to get a little bit of help.

Keith McKeever 1:42:36

Absolutely. Speaking of mental health, I do have a little, you know, video that I put together to play at the end of these podcasts is the first time I put it out there, but they're you know, you know, if you're somebody struggling with something, you know, I got the phone number coming up here in a second for the National Suicide Hotline. But Tammy, thanks so much for coming on and talking about this, you know, hopefully this provides some insight to people because, you know, six to six to 7% of the minimum of Americans dealing with this, you know, it bleeds over in the military veteran community. So, you know, hopefully this gets to somebody and help somebody and whatever, whatever that looks like. So I appreciate you coming on, and I look forward to chatting with you next time. I see.

Tammi Moses 1:43:16

All right, thank you, Keith. I really appreciate your time and the work you're doing here. No problem.

Keith McKeever 1:43:27

Alright, that's it for today's episode. Thanks, folks for tuning in. And take a listen to what we got what we had in store for you today. Appreciate you tuning in. Real quick before we leave, don't forget to go check out battle buddy podcast.net. That's our website, trying to constantly provide as much content and valuable stuff there as possible, from financial things to VA to just other resources that I that I can provide. So go there, check it out. If you have any ideas reach out to us for other things we can add to the to the website. And don't forget to like and subscribe on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, you know, go follow us on all those platforms so we can help get the message out, is you know, the goal here this podcast is to help people whether that's to you know, help people get a needle out of their arms to get themselves clean and back onto productive path. Or, or take the gun out of somebody's mouth, you know, and help them deal with those demons and and go on to live a better life or get somebody on a path to financial freedom or just bettering their life as a whole right the goal is to help our fellow vets and that's something we should all be striving for. So help me get the message out be my be my battle buddies and go do that for me. Last thing I've got here is is for those who might be at their at the end of their their rope. And it feel like there may not be another option other than to become a statistic today. And all I got to say to you is don't I want to be your battle buddy. You got tons of other battle buddies out there. You know we love and appreciate you We do not want to lose another brother sister today. So, down at the bottom of the screen if you're watching, I've got the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. That number is 1-800-273-8255. So make that phone call or contact a VA contact your pastor, I don't care. Whoever that person or entity needs to be for you. Make that phone call. So you can be here with us tomorrow.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai