Spirituality & Mental Health
Phyllis Leavitt is a retired psychotherapist and accomplished author. She brings her wealth of experience and insights to the forefront as we embark on a journey through the complex landscape of mental health, abuse, and healing in America. Drawing from her years as a psychotherapist, she provides valuable perspectives on these deeply impactful issues, shedding light on the challenges and pathways to recovery.
Our discussion delves into the realm of trauma and healing, where Phyllis offers guidance on understanding the nature of trauma and the processes of healing that can help individuals on their journey toward recovery and well-being.
Family dynamics and abuse are important themes that we explore in our conversation. Phyllis shares her expertise on how family dynamics can contribute to or mitigate abusive situations, offering insights that can be valuable for those seeking to break free from cycles of abuse.
An intriguing connection that emerges in our conversation is the striking similarities between prison and veteran transition experiences. Phyllis draws parallels between these two seemingly disparate worlds, highlighting common challenges and opportunities for growth during these transitions.
Lastly, we delve into the profound connections between spirituality and mental health. Phyllis provides thoughtful insights on how spirituality can play a vital role in one's mental and emotional well-being, offering a holistic perspective on healing and personal growth.
In This Episode We Cover:
Mental health, abuse and healing in America
Trauma & healing
Family dynamics & abuse
Similarities of prison and veteran transition
Connections between spirituality and mental health
Battle Buddy Podcast Guest Links:
Transcript from Episode 113 with Phyllis Leavitt:
Keith McKeever 0:01
Hey, welcome back to another episode of the battle buddy Podcast. Today, we've got a great guest lined up for you. This guest has authored a couple of books. Today we're gonna talk about kind of the intersection between spirituality, mental health, those kinds of things. So first things first, because we're talking about mental health and those kinds of things, just want to, first and foremost, say, if you're struggling, remember, you need to call 988. Use those lifelines, or call a battle, buddy, whatever you got to do, right, just want to get that out of the way. First and foremost, if you're struggling, reach out to those lifelines. But we're going to talk about spirituality, mental health, where those connect, we're gonna talk about some of her books, they're titled, a light in the darkness and into the fire. Those are stories about her life and her struggles. And she's got a new book come out America and therapy, which I'm excited to kind of dive into and hear a little bit more about. My guest has over 30 years in the psychotherapist role. So without further ado, let's dive into it. Welcome to the battle buddy podcast with Keith McKeever. So Phyllis, welcome to the show.
Phyllis Leavitt 1:06
Well, thank you so much for having me, Kate. It's just wonderful to be here with you. Thank you.
Keith McKeever 1:10
Yeah, well, no problem. I'm really, really excited to, to kind of dive into this because I think there's a lot of connections here. I know, on my own personal journey, my wife kind of yelled at me for years, about, you know, well, there's three types of health, right? There's physical health, mental health and spiritual health. I have to self admit, I was one of those people that ignored all of those, in one way or another, probably like a lot of us. But, you know, hey, knowing is half the battle. But before we dive into that, tell us a little bit about yourself and your backstory. What I didn't tell people already.
Phyllis Leavitt 1:49
Yeah, well, I've been a psychotherapist for over 34 years, and recently retired and just focused on writing. And, and really, my whole career was birthed out of my own personal journey in life, I had some significant trauma of abuse in my childhood. And that left me feeling kind of lost and, you know, on not understanding myself and not having no knowledge whatsoever about the effects of trauma, let alone the fact that I really didn't remember mostly anything until I was in my 30s. So there was a big shadow over my life that in at first drove me very much in a spiritual direction, looking for a connection to God looking for a connection to Divine Love, really. And that was all really good. You know, I'm, I'm a product of the 60s. So that was a big deal. In the 60s, there was a lot of spiritual awakening happening in my generation at that time. And I got a lot out of following some meditative and, you know, other paths of spirituality that were all really good. And I definitely had moments of deep connection to something beyond myself that was divinely loving and wise. And at a certain point, I realized that there was something really missing that. And I've told this story many times, you know, I had a moment, a real moment where I realized that my whole pursuit was looking for God's love. But actually, I also really wanted to find love in the human world, I wanted to feel that my love was worthwhile and received by other people, and that I could receive love from other people. And at the time, I was in a, I had young children, and I was in a very unhappy marriage. And it just, it just all kind of came together that and some of my friends at that time, who were also very much spiritual seekers, were starting to go to therapy. And so I decided I was going to try that. And it was really one of the best things I ever did. And there are many best things that I did in my life. But it was one of the best things I did, because it made me immediately aware that my conditioning and my early experiences had very much to do with the places where I felt blocked the places where I was in pain, and the places where I wasn't living my full potential by any means. And so I just started on that journey of doing a deep dive into my past. You know, my very first therapist said to me, you know, tell me about your family. And, and I was like, Oh, my family's fine, and I'm the problem. There's something wrong with me, and I don't know what it is. And I think she probably looked at me and thought, Well, we'll see about that. And so, you know, I did many different kinds of therapy over several years. And I began to remember some of the traumatic things that happened to me. And the puzzle pieces of myself started to come together. And I went to graduate school and became a therapist myself, because my own experience was so meaningful for me. You know, one of the first things I did when I went to therapy, the first time is I went to the library, which people don't do anymore, but went to the library, and took out a book on psychology. And the first thing I read was a list of the 10, most formative things that happened to people early on in their lives that shape, some of the dysfunction and pain that they suffer later on some of the dysfunctional coping mechanisms we develop. So that opened that whole world of our conditioning, and then I'll just, you know, segue really quick, and then we can come back to whatever questions you have. What I realized, as a therapist, and with all the training that I did, I worked with a lot of children and families and couples and individuals. And no matter what population of people I was working with, it became clearer and clearer. And also from my own studies in graduate school, that our family dynamics have so much to do with what we come to believe about ourselves, the coping mechanisms that our role modeled for us that we develop, and that the family system is larger than our family of origin is our communities. And in a way, it's our country. And in another way, it's the whole world, because they're all family systems. And we all are conditioned by the parts that we play, and the parts that other people play in relationship to us. So if our own family is pretty healthy, great, we have a solid foundation to go out into the world and be relatively in our imperfection, you know, contributing members of an adult society. And if our families are highly dysfunctional or overtly abusive, we come with deficits into the world around us, most of us and of course, we all know exceptions of people who just rose from the ashes without any help. But that's not most people. And so that's what prompted me to write my most present book, America and therapy to bring some of the understanding that I got in my own journey and as a psychotherapist, to the family of America so that we could start to understand what's happening in our country today. And what is needed to reverse courses from so much divisiveness and violence and discrimination, and injustice. That's it in a nutshell.
Keith McKeever 7:34
Definitely a lot to unpack there. But Do you by chance? Remember the title of that book that you check out at the library? About? Oh, my goodness, that that would be a fascinating read. I would love Yeah. Yeah, I
Phyllis Leavitt 7:52
don't even remember what was on the list. I just remember the light bulb that went off that like, oh, you know, this isn't I didn't just get born flawed. There are things that happen in families that really condition the way we feel about ourselves, and, and ultimately what we bring to our adult life and our relationships in the world. But I'll I'll, I'll see if I can find it. I have I have no idea what it was.
Keith McKeever 8:18
Yeah, it's a very, I consider him a very inquisitive or endlessly curious kind of person. And you said that I was like, oh, boy, very curious to know what would be on that list. Because, for me, there's two certainties to life, you know, first of all, we're all lucky to be born, and make it to that point. But the certainties are if you're born, and then you die, right. And it's all these variable moments that happen between point A and point B. Right. And a lot of that's just circumstance, luck, whatever you want to call it, that, like you said, it's the family structure around you, the community, the culture, the religion, all these different follow that play into it, right. So that shape everything, so it's, that'd be very, very fascinating, you know, socioeconomic class, and all kinds of different things all the way into to end up into that, so. But yeah, America and therapy, that was one of the things I was going to ask you about. So can you dive a little bit more into some, some of those some of those steps, kind of what your what your, what you found, or what you've seen, you know, some of those things like social injustice, and some of those things. I mean, those are, I mean, just the things that we've seen over the last couple years and, you know, this kind of unique Taavet unique episode for a lot of my listeners have probably realized this, I don't typically go into religion or current policy, you know, things like that. But I think that there is some power to kind of talk about these things when when to examine them a little bit. But I mean, these are things that we've seen over the last couple of years, from joy Floyd to all the other race things and, you know, political divides. You know, I don't want to get into the specifics of them, but it divides Just, you know, so what? Well, I've seen,
Phyllis Leavitt 10:03
I think the beauty of psychology and psychotherapy that sort of forms part of the foundation of my book. And there's probably many pieces of the foundation of my book. But is it psychology in and of itself is not partisan. It's not Republican or Democrat or Independent or green. It's not anything, it's about our mental health, and what constitutes mental health. And one of the unfortunate things that is happening in our country and probably has been happening in our country and all over the world for for probably generations is that we're being conditioned to believe that many issues that are actually mental health issues are ideological issues, or partisan issues, when in fact, their mental health issues. And so one of the one of the ways that I approached my book, and I'll try to make this really clear, and if it's not pleased to ask me to clarify, but one of the ways that I approached my book is that I took the lens that I have had for for so many years of experience of looking at the individual family, and what makes up a dysfunctional family. What are the dynamics of an abusive family? What are the dynamics of a relatively healthy family, again, given that none of us is perfect, and we're, we're all on a growth curve. But there are notable dynamics that belong to dysfunctional, abusive and neglectful families that I see playing out on a national level, and through large institutions of power. And so I'm bringing that perspective of what we know and understand creates a cycle of abuse perpetuates a cycle of abuse, and what happens to people who aren't healed or rescued from a cycle of abuse, and bringing that to a national conversation. And that's, so that's one half of the book where I really talk in detail about what those dynamics are. And I'm happy to share some of those with you here. And the other half of the book is like what is needed to reverse this, what is needed to break the cycle of abuse, that we have learned from psychotherapy, and working with families and individuals and children and couples, that we could actually bring into national conversation for national healing, for bringing us back together and off of this ledge of such violence and divisiveness. That, that we all know, in our individual lives doesn't work. You know, fighting people don't accomplish anything except pain, paying for themselves and paying for their, the people around them. And if it's a fighting couple, pain for their children. And so, you know, so the second half of the book is really devoted to what what is needed to reverse this course that we already know from the field of psychology works with people. And could we bring that lens to a national conversation for national healing, that's really the bottom line for my book. So that makes a lot of sense.
Keith McKeever 12:55
I love the way you kind of structure that. But obviously, you're the you're the expert on it from an outsider's perspective. I've talked to a lot of people about different things. But I know that you know, whether it's an addiction issue, or somebody who's in abusive relationship, whatever addiction you've got, or whatever issue you get, you have to first identify that there's a problem, right? Before you can take the steps to get out of that, whether that's rehab or leaving that person, whatever. So there's like a series of steps there. And then you have to leave that situation or get the help. And then you have to go on the healing journey. So how you kind of structured the book to kind of mirror that, that kind of snap of like, hey, we have to realize what, what's like really going on here, and how this happens, or else that cycle continues. We see that in poverty and socio economic situations, if you can't afford to get out of it, you know, of this situation, and you just fall into the same cycle as your parents and your grandparents. And it just repeats. You know, if you can't find a way out, or you can't see a way out, you don't get out.
Phyllis Leavitt 14:04
And if we if we look at just that issue from a, from a larger perspective of a country or a state, or you know, even a locality. There are many people stuck in poverty, who really don't have a way out because the social conditions around them are not providing them with a living wage or adequate housing or access to health care. And we know in an individual family if you had a parent who was taking one kid to the doctor and letting the other kid lie on the couch in pain, you we would say that's mentally unbalanced and unhealthy. What's wrong with that parent? If you had a parent that was putting one child out in the cold and not feeding them and feeding another child, you would say this is there's mental illness going on in this family. And yet the same dynamics are happening in our country, where many people are disadvantaged because of the family dynamic that is running the country economically, racially, gender wise. In terms of education, health care, the justice system, there are many people that are being left out in the cold. And we're being fed that these are our ideological issues. Some people are less worthy, or they don't deserve it, or they, they're lazy, or they're whatever, are entitled, when in fact, the family system is not serving all members of the family equally. And so I call this a mental health issue. It's not a partisan issue. But we're being led to believe that which only feeds you know, our divisiveness. If that makes sense to
Keith McKeever 15:43
you. Does that make sense to me? Yeah. And I'm also thinking of, you know, how this kind of compounds things, you know, you've got, I guess, normal civilians, that I think about it from a military perspective, and you think of veteran families, who have to live in a civilian world, just like everybody else, but then they have this. We have our own unique issues, physical health issues related to service or mental health issues related to service, but then you still have the same socio economic issues, you still have the same race issues and religious, whatever, right that that's difficult, difficult to manage. Right. And you still have abusive households, and you still have substance abuse. We obviously know that's a that's a problem within the community. I've been talking about that for for a long time. So have you seen you know, throughout your years of working, have you seen it a unique unique things play or in the veteran community? With any winning anything? No, I
Phyllis Leavitt 16:42
have not worked with the veteran community. Interestingly enough, there. I'm in New Mexico. And there are a lot of veteran services in New Mexico that I'm I haven't been affiliated with. And so I think, yeah, so I can't really, honestly speak to that, but, but I can certainly speak to trauma.
Keith McKeever 17:01
Okay, gotcha. Yeah. Great. Yeah. I would imagine there'd be a lot of unique twists and turns, you know, to kind of deal with that too complicated, I guess. Yeah. Add extra layers to it.
Phyllis Leavitt 17:14
Right. Yeah, absolutely. And if you want to add those, please do you know, but I'm happy to talk about trauma in a more in a more generalized way. And certainly, you know, exposure to violence, and, you know, the things that a veteran would experience who's in combat would be could be highly traumatic. And I know if you've ever heard of the book, The Body Keeps the Score, I think it's in that book, The Body Keeps the Score by crook. I'm pretty sure it's in that book. And it may have been in another book. So excuse me if I don't have the right reference. But one of the things that I read about when I was studying a lot about trauma, is that even among the vet population, people who have trauma prior to their service, had greater propensity to have PTSD, severe PTSD after service, because there was already a foundation that was shaky inside from trauma that preceded whatever happened during their time of service. And so I think that's an important element to understand.
Keith McKeever 18:21
I think in some cases, you could make an argument that there's a lot of people who serve to get away from those environments, you know, to tie this kind of back to where we're at, you know, right, right. I've heard, I'm sure. There's probably a lot of Marines that would listen to this and be like, Yeah, that's me. I've heard that a lot about the Marine Corps, a lot of guys in the Marine Corps are just like, you know, they get into the Marine Corps, because that's a quick, easy way to get out. More so than other branches. I don't know why. I don't know why it's always been that way. But interesting, you know, doesn't matter really what branch but a lot of people just like that's a way out, you know, if you're growing up from a very poor area, whether it's urban, rural, doesn't matter. And you're like, I don't want to be here, I don't wanna be in a small town, or I don't want to be in this inner city, and I'm tired of the gang violence, or I'm tired to live in the country, right. And I see the same 50 people every day, whatever it is, there's no opportunities here for me. I want a job, I want opportunities and what skills I'm a free education. I want all these things. Cool. I'm gonna join the military. Yeah. And, you know,
Phyllis Leavitt 19:22
it's a really good point that I wasn't actually aware of. So thank you for making that.
Keith McKeever 19:27
Yeah, I've got a lot of people who've come from, you know, well, from those backgrounds, but I've known a lot of people who've come from, you know, broken families, broken homes, you know, violent backgrounds and stuff like that. And that's their way out. Yes. Hey, look, I can get a job for the next four years get paid, well have medical benefits, get education benefits, right, then I could get my education and I can get a job, I can get a solid job and get out. And I don't have to go back to this environment. And so there's a lot of people that elect to do that. I've just I've heard that. There's a lot of people that happen to join the Marine Corps over other branches of Interesting. So
Phyllis Leavitt 20:03
we take our wounds with us. And that's kind of what I think psychology really helps people understand. And like I said, there's always stellar examples of people who rose from the ashes and somehow made it out of a highly dysfunctional or violent or abusive situation. And they go on to lead these amazing stellar lives. But that's not the case for most people. Most people suffer from their unhealed wounds in one way or another, and very often end up intentionally or not inflicting them on other people. And that's part of what I'm writing about in my book that there are. So let me let me just say, quickly, maybe here's some of the dynamics of what we know of abusive families. And let me just say, you know, you're saying, you know, a lot of people who come from highly dysfunctional families, I, my experience shows me that abuse and neglect are epidemic in our country, and maybe all over the world, there is definitely not a focus on the health and well being of the family in our country, there just isn't, because the resources are often spent in other places, rather than on mental health, providing the best conditions for families to be able to provide for themselves. And many, many adults bring their stressors from their workplace, from poverty, from discrimination, from lack of social justice, home to their families, and that's where their rage and their powerlessness often, you know, sometimes very unintentionally, gets acted out. And so I want to say that it's epidemic here, because I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, that appear to be functioning, they hold a job, they walk their dog, they go to the doctor, they take their kids to school, and there's massive suffering inside and dysfunction in their own lives. That often we don't see. And it's, it's a very, it's a kind of a silent pain that is echoing across many strata of, of America. But some of the main main dynamics in a dysfunctional family, and I'm going to say, an abusive family. So where someone is dominating and abusive family members, and what you often see is that one dynamic is an abuser blames their victims for the abuse. I beat her because she her dress was too short, I beat him because he got a bad grade in school, those kinds of things, that there's always a justification for the abuse. And there is no justification for abuse. In reality, there are other ways to deal with problems and a family besides terrorizing people hurting their bodies, or emotionally abusing them and giving them terrible messages about themselves. But that that is an abuse dynamic, that the victims are blamed for the abuse. And we see this in the country, poor people, you know, they're entitled, they're lazy, they should be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps when they're making $7 An hour and they can't pay their rent. You know, for instance, another dynamic, which is very within it goes along with that is that then abusers blame their victims for their symptoms. How often have I heard over the years, a client say to me, my father beat me or my mother beat me. And then they said, Stop crying, or I'll beat you more. People cry when they're beaten, that's a natural symptom of having your body be abused and violated, and yet, then they're punished for the symptom of crying. And, and this is widespread in our country, that the most marginalized the most deprived the most the people who suffer the most injustice on so many levels, whether it's racial or economic, or gender, or medical, whatever it is, that have cries of pain, they're acting out, they may become addicts, they may do illegal activities to try to support themselves. And yet, they're then seeing then they're blamed for their symptoms. And so certainly not everybody who is oppressed becomes a criminal or acts out that's that's clearly not true. But in family systems, we understand that the most symptomatic member of the family is crying for help for the family. And we look to the family dynamics to understand the symptoms of the most symptomatic person. I can give you a really down to earth example if you want one. And that is I worked with a little girl who was wetting the bed and she was 11 and her parents brought her to therapy. And I, you know, sat down with the parents initially, which I usually would and just sort of asked, you know, what, what did they think was going on with their child. And they said they didn't know, nothing was really, they didn't see any big things. I asked them how their relationship was they said, was okay. And there were a couple of siblings in the family. And she was the one she had, she was wetting the bed. So I did something called a family sculpture in which I had the whole family come in. And I asked, each person just said, a little scenario of anything, anything that they wanted to express about family, their family, and the mother went and the father went, and the two other siblings went, and they all made these little synth, and each person had a line to speak. They, you know, mom's in the kitchen, cooking dinner, or dad's reading the paper, the kids are setting the table, that kind of thing. And then they each had a line to speak. And I don't remember what anybody's was, except when I got to the little girl who was wetting the bed. So everything was benign. And I'm sitting there thinking, what's missing from this picture?
Keith McKeever 26:06
Or sounds is like Leave It to Beaver as possible. Right?
Phyllis Leavitt 26:09
Right, right. So the little girl gets up, and she puts her mom on one side of the room and the dad on the other side of the room, and they're pointing at each other and screaming at each other to stop their drug use. would not have known that had I not done that kind of an intervention and a sort of a information gathering session. And then it was clear with this little girl was the symptom bear for the pain of the arguing and the drug abuse that was going on in the family. She was she wasn't there was nothing wrong with her. She was the symptom bear for the pain of the family. And we have so many symptom bears for the pain of the American family. And that's part of what I want to bring to our greater understanding in my book American therapy, we have to understand that our symptom bears are crying for help, just like she was she didn't know how to say she didn't she didn't know how to tell me, her mom and dad, were doing drugs. But once once, you know, I don't know if she would have told me but once she had the opportunity to actually show she did. And she might have told me eventually, you know, right.
Keith McKeever 27:21
But that makes me think of as listen to another podcast, oh, gosh, maybe a week or so ago. And the topic was kind of like above recognizing signs. It was a podcast, you know, actually about Buddhism, speaking of spirituality and stuff, but it was about recognizing the signs. And then when somebody is has an emotion, like anger or something like that, that is not their natural state. And that you need to recognize that as just a sign of how they're reacting to something in their state. Exactly, to do dig deeper, and you know, just like the 11 year old girl, she's peeing the bed? Well, that's, that's not typically normal, unless there's a medical issue, right? So you have to dig deeper and see what actually is going on. And so once I heard that, I was like, an, when you're telling your story, I'm like, there's a lot of times where we as humans could really just kind of take that advice. And it'd be so helpful to just be like, you know, maybe I should just dig a little bit deeper and see what's really going on here. Rather than just taking things at the surface level, and just letting it, you know, make you angry or upset or whatever, you know, and see what you know, be a little bit more aware of what's really going on.
Phyllis Leavitt 28:34
Right? angry, upset or judgmental, which is where we go, you know, right,
Keith McKeever 28:40
we are very quick to judge to be judgmental in this country. But our strongest suits, probably pretty well known around the world for that. Right. And that's not a good thing.
Phyllis Leavitt 28:52
I did some research, you know, when I was writing my book on different things that different topics that I was writing about, and one of them was a little bit about the criminal justice system. And one of the things that I uncovered when I was doing that research is that the statistics of unhealed child abuse among incarcerated people are way higher than the average population. So you have people who have untreated child abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, mental and emotional abuse, who have are at much higher risk for being incarcerated, and, and much higher risk for not having the education I think they said the average age for the incarcerated person. In America, the average age of education was fourth grade. So we're talking about people who are already highly deprived, emotionally and mentally abused, who are at higher risk for criminal behavior, and then they're judged and sentenced, and we don't have a criminal justice. system that is dedicated to rehabilitation, which is what people deserve. They deserve to be understood for where where their symptoms came from and helped to, with any means that we have possible to become functional, safe members of society and return to society as much as humanly possible. And of course, there's people we don't know how to treat. But there are many that we do.
Keith McKeever 30:26
I had a conversation, actually an episode that has not come out yet. But there was some tie ins, speaking of the prison system with the institutionalization of prisoners and the institutionalization of the veteran population that we enter in the institution of service. And we get out, and actually that there's more resources available to those in the prison system than there is to veterans getting wow, I didn't know that there's a transition assistance program, ran by the Department of Labor, where, in essence, they basically tell you create a LinkedIn profile, create a resume, a couple of days, maybe a week worth of training on, go get a job, do all these kinds of things in a few different resources. And that's about it. Wow, there might be a couple of other resources, other narratives pretty much, CEA get out of here. Good luck on your, you know, there's, there's the VA, if you want the VA resources, go get it, but you're pretty much on your own to just go navigate that system. You know, but in many cases, there was a lot of truth to that there is more resources between halfway houses and mental health resources and education systems within prisons, like there are opportunity to some opportunities there. It was pretty profound when when we had that conversation. But either way you look at it, they're both institutions, and you get out and you give those people the resources, to have an opportunity to stand their own on their own two feet and become productive members of society and reduce the stigmas that are attached, whether it's this person was a prison, you know, this person has a felony on their record. But hey, they've clean themselves up, they've got some education, give him a chance, let them be a productive member of society, pay their taxes, do their thing. Because if they do that, and they don't get in trouble, and they're productive members of society, guess what, they're not filling up their prisons, they're not interacting with the police. They're not causing problems. It's reducing tax burdens and issues, some things veterans, if they're out there, they're doing things. Right. productive member of society, then it's less to worry about it does bog down the system. So yeah, there's there's a lot to that.
Phyllis Leavitt 32:30
Yeah. And I think I mean, I, I'm glad that you're speaking to the veteran population, because I know, and I don't have statistics on this, but some of the things that I was reading about when I was looking into the whole criminal justice systems that we have is that a lot of those services are not provided by the prison system. They're provided by volunteers and other organizations. And it sounds like the veteran population really needs the same thing. They should be it shouldn't be provided by the government. Right. So you
Keith McKeever 33:00
know, what the what they do provide for the Department of Labor, I mean, it is important, right? LinkedIn profile creature resume, helping people get jobs, that's important, right, but you know, you take people off the street, you put them in uniform, and you put them in for eight and a half or 13, weeks, whatever the branches, you know, the bootcamp and then advanced training, and you're indoctrinating them into this society for however long and then they're in for four years, 10 years, 20 years in the system. But when they get out, it's a week long session of get a job, here's how you were, you know, put on a suit or dress clothes, whatever. Update your resume, update your LinkedIn. Good luck. Yeah, it's okay. It took you 13 weeks to go through basic training, and another I don't know, six months ago through advanced training 20 years ago, and then you just learned 20 years on the job and the system, and then you're going to be prepared for the outside in a week or two. And so it's just, it doesn't work. But there are I tell you, what, there are a lot of nonprofits out there that are helping people kind of fill in those gaps in some other things, but there's always a need. For more, I will say that there's always a need for more.
Phyllis Leavitt 34:14
Well, I think there's a need for it to be a national policy, that we take care of each other, that we actually understand the depth of what can happen to people who are in service. And I'll say this, that we try to avoid war. We try to avoid it so that people are not traumatized by being an active combat that we try to settle things the best we can and use military force only. Only when absolutely necessary. And whatever that means to different people obviously,
Keith McKeever 34:47
we come back to that philosophy of speak softly but carry a big stick right. It was It wasn't ready was a Teddy Roosevelt who said that I think so have that. Right. So yeah, I think that you know, that's what like one of the coolest quotes ever. I have to pretty sure that was Teddy Roosevelt because was president ever by the way? It's my personal opinion? I mean, hey, Big Game Hunter. Alright, cool is due to dudes. But anyway, I do want to kind of switch streams a little bit and kind of bring, you know, since we're talking about mental health and spirituality, I'm kind of curious. What is your definition of spirituality? As you've kind of navigated throughout your career? You know what you've seen? Yeah.
Phyllis Leavitt 35:25
Yeah, you know, it's interesting. This is the way I like to talk about it, that because I think this is what brings the world of psychology and spirituality as I understand it together. And that is, you know, whether you're following a path of meditation, or some kind of spiritual practice, or you're deeply involved in your religious faith. Or you're going down a path of psychological, you know, healing, and sort of, you know, healing the wounds of your past and becoming a more functional, relational, peaceful, loving person, you know, who is committed to nonviolent conflict resolution and healthy relationship in the present, the way that I see them coming together is that I believe, and I really see this in my own journey personally, and with people that I work, I see and believe that we each have a very essential self, that we were born with, before all the layers of conditioning and role models and, you know, experiences that we have sort of layered over this essential self, and, and that that essential self is intrinsically loving, it's intrinsically wired, to connect, and Bond and love and care and cooperate. I've never worked with anyone who has peeled back all the layers of abuse or neglect, or terrible conditioning, who has found some violent monster in there, it just doesn't happen. The violent monster is the is part of a layering of very faulty human conditioning. And when you peel all those layers back, and you uncover the true essence that a person was born with, and I believe each person was born with this, that's what you find. And that's this, I think that's the same essence that you find from any genuine spiritual pursuit, at least in my experience, and, you know, other people may feel differently about their spirituality. But that's, that's how I see them coming together. And I have a beautiful, beautiful example of that is a client that I worked with, who wasn't spiritual at all, had no, you know, that wasn't very, very left brain very rational, very, like, you know, sort of letter the law kind of person who, whose spouse brought him to therapy. And he wasn't really having it. He, you know, he was just he was polite, and, you know, they lasted a few sessions, and and then a year later, he came back, because his wife wanted a separation, that she could not get her emotional needs met with this man. And she wanted to live separately for a while, and he was very upset. He did an unbelievable amount of therapy with unbelievable commitment and a deep dive that I never saw coming from this guy. And a year later, he had such a profound spiritual connection to himself. And he came in and he told me, my friends don't recognize me, they say, What happened to you, you're a completely different person. And that was from doing the psychological work, you know, so I think all roads inevitably will end up leading to Rome, which is that we find our loving, caring, compassionate and wise self. So that's my take on it.
Keith McKeever 39:14
Do you think it's really important for you know, I do want to recognize that there could be some people out there that are trying to get these get these right, like, gosh, atheist or agnostic or something like that, that don't really have a belief or belief in nothing, whatever it is, but whether it's Christianity or Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, whatever, right, but that you really explore that spiritual side while you explore the therapy and the mental health side. And like, you know, what are your thoughts on the power of kind of exploring both of those together at the same time, in a healing way?
Phyllis Leavitt 39:53
I think it's fabulous if for anyone who feels called to explore both at the same time, because like I said, that I think in their essence, they really go together. And I will say this, that we, you know, going back to what I said earlier, we bring our wounds everywhere we go. And to the extent that our psychological wounds and especially if there's been some kind of abuse or trauma or neglect, to the extent that we bring those unhealed wounds to our spirituality, I think for many people, it distorts their spiritual their spirituality. So if you grew up in a very abusive home, where one person was like the judge and jury of whatever happened to other people and was very punishing, it is likely it's not inevitable, but it is likely that you may gravitate or gravitate toward the belief in a God that is punishing. And, and violent, which some people have. So we take our unhealed wounds with us. And that's why I feel like those the actually the spirituality and the psychology need to go together. Because to the extent that we can heal our own wounds that happened to us with other people, you know, other people who were themselves wounded, then I think our spirituality is healthier, if that makes sense. And I could, I could say a lot more about that. But
Keith McKeever 41:17
yeah, it makes a lot of sense to me, I kind of opened the show with my wife had been telling me for years, I need to work on my physical, mental and spiritual health. You know, I've neglected my physical health for many years. Hmm, but yeah. spiritual health, totally non existent for me, mental health, you know, for many, many years now, I had been on kind of a journey of, you know, kind of mindset and learning. I've always been interested in psychology, but just just learning about myself and my growth mindset, if you will, you know, for kind of a cliche, cliche term, but just only kind of in that way, but only over the last gosh, I guess it's been since 2020, that I finally started seeing a therapist myself at the VA, Oh, great. Have I kind of combined that, but it was last fall, that I finally, you know, kind of had a breakdown myself, and I just, well, not like, you know, mental health breakdown, but I just kind of just like, all in all, I kind of told myself, I was like, Alright, maybe my wife is right. Here's this, she's gonna She knows now. But you know, I just realized I was like, I am too heavy. You know, all my VA disabilities, I'm like, Man, if I just lose some weight, I can reverse at least some of my labs, I know, some of my things are not going to feel better, I know, I'm still going to deal with X, Y, and Z, maybe a couple of things feel a little bit better. But if nothing else, I know I'll feel better about myself, I know, I'll look better, I know, I'll potentially have a little bit better energy, I'll probably sleep a little bit better. You know, those kinds of things. And then I was like, okay, is physical health. So I need to lose weight. Right. So I kind of dove into that. But I was like, my wife is probably right on spiritual health and mental health, right. So I'm already seeing a counselor saying a whole health coach got to nutritionalist to the VA, I use every resource that was available. But you know, that I really looked into the spiritual side of things. And I really haven't explored this too much on the podcast. But, you know, I, for me, myself, what has worked for me, I grew up Lutheran, I ended up converting to Buddhism. And that has worked for me, and that has, to me has combined almost perfectly with my therapy at the VA. But to me, I look at it like, and that's why I wanted to ask your thoughts on it. Because for me, it's like trying to lose weight with diet and exercise, you can lose weight with just just you know, having the right diet or you can lose weight, you can potentially lose lose weight with just exercising a lot. And eating the same, may not work all that well. But if you do all of it together, right, you have a greater chance of success. And for me, you know, really putting all three of them together, right kind of diving into this new religion and just kind of spoke to me personally, and continuing my therapy with VA. And, you know, I've lost 60 pounds personally, and I some ways I feel a lot better some ways I still feel the same. But still. All in all, I do feel like a totally different person here, gosh, nine months later, but I do feel like it really is like that diet and exercise together. Like it takes both of them to kind of navigate that. So I was really curious to kind of you kind of say similar similar thoughts as I do.
Phyllis Leavitt 44:40
Absolutely. And my path is similar. It just started out with you know, started out with looking for a spiritual connection and then move to the psychological and the physical health hasn't been as much of an issue for me because fortunately, fingers crossed. I've been a relatively healthy person, but but for sure I really do focus on eating well, and exercise and all those things because our mind, body and spirit do function actually together, and they influence each other. So I love what you're saying. And I do really think that, and maybe some people don't feel this because it's either not their conditioning, or it's not their nature, or they just aren't this way. But I think that intrinsically many, many people really long for a connection that's greater than themselves. However, they term that, you know, I think that's been in human history forever, you know, different kinds of worship, and religion and spirituality of all different kinds, and some of it very, you know, very based in our wounds, and some of it not. But I do think that there is a longing for connection, you know, beyond death that many people feel and desire. And so I think, when it's possible to combine all three approaches, that's, that's a recipe for a lot of healing. So I really affirm what you're saying,
Keith McKeever 46:05
I think everybody should at least take a really good look, you know, lesson of the day here, is you should really just examine all where you're at with all of these things and say, okay, you know, what, am I doing good here? What am I doing bad? Where do I need to focus my attention? With these? Maybe I'm doing great. Maybe I eat healthy, I'm great shape, and I go to the gym. Okay, that's great. Do I need to put the work in? On the spiritual side? Do I need to put the work in on the mental health side? Right, right. Or maybe I go to maybe I go to church every Sunday, and I go to Bible study, or whatever the case may be whatever religion is, you follow? Right? Maybe Maybe you've been ignoring the therapy? Sorry, add that into it. Or maybe you've been doing all those, but you just, you know, you're eating McDonald's every single day. You know, okay, put down the cheeseburger go for a salad, McDonald's salad, because I think those burgers aren't so aware. But, you know, switch it up, right focus on those because it's, I do, I do firmly believe that it's all three. And if you get those kind of in sync, and on focus, those all kind of boil over to everything else in your life, it what you eat, plays into the mental health, and it all just kind of merges together, but then that your relationships, your career, it just, it's a compound effect of everything.
Phyllis Leavitt 47:30
Right. And sometimes, if you're really focusing on one, it will just naturally morph into the others. You know, sometimes if you're really right with yourself on an emotional level, it opens the door to your spirituality, or you automatically want to take better care of your body. And sometimes you just have to make a deliberate effort, it doesn't matter where it comes from. Right?
Keith McKeever 47:51
Well, I'll give you a perfect kind of point on that, where one thing kind of leads to another. I'm not a big drinker in the first place, I will have a drink every now and then. But with Buddhism, guys, it's not. It's kind of frowned upon, in most cases to drink. So because of the religious aspect of it, because of mental health concerns of myself anyway. And the trying to lose weight, right? There's a lot of empty calories and alcohol. All three of those were factors in me of like, that's cool. I don't drink much anyway. So it's even easier for me to say, No, I don't do that. Same thing with soda. I've had like three regular sodas all year. I just, you know, it was it was one of those things where I'm like, I really don't need it. It's not that important to me now. You know, I gotta cut it out of my diet. And you know, it was easy to do. But, you know, alcohol was a perfect example of like, it just kind of for all three categories. For me personally, it was easy to cut out. So there's, there's, there's there's bleed over and everything. So Right. Right. But anyway, I guess last question I've got for you, because I'm always curious. Anytime I have an author to ask this kind of question. You've written a lot. You got the books, I'm sure you've written a lot of blog articles. And there's some other things along the way. Because of your past and some of your trauma. I'm curious how much has writing helped you kind of process your own thoughts and emotions? Oh, what advice do you have for other people to get out there and actually just start writing themselves?
Phyllis Leavitt 49:23
Great question. Great question. You know, I think it's a huge part. Actually, for me, it may be one of even more than any particular spiritual practice that I followed, and I still do meditate. But I would say writing is right up there as a spirit as a spiritual practice. For me, it is the way that I connect to my deepest self and it always has been, I was just, I think I was born that way because I knew that I wanted to be a writer when I was like a preteen. So you know, so I highly recommend journal singing and writing. But what I would say is it doesn't have to be writing whatever your creative calling is. It might be art, it might be music, it might be animals, it might be being in nature, it might be it, whatever calls to you, it can be your avenue of connection. And so and we have different callings. Some people will never write a word, you know, I will never play an instrument, I don't have that calling, and they don't have that ability
Keith McKeever 50:27
to have us right.
Phyllis Leavitt 50:31
But some people playing music is like their lifeline to their soul, and their heart. And for me, writing has been that And absolutely, I think I'll be writing till I leave this life, because it is that connection for me. But I would encourage people to just see whatever your connection is, it doesn't have to be writing and journaling can be immensely helpful. Especially if you just give yourself permission to put on the page, whatever really wants to be spoken without editing it without judging it without feeling like anybody has to read it. But just letting your heart and your soul and your mind, you know, express themselves fully. But again, you can do that in any area of creativity or self expression.
Keith McKeever 51:19
I love that answer. And I wish I could say as a young kid, you know, I had a passion for writing, but I did not. I've gotten better. You know, I don't mind it so much. Now. Although I do have to have my wife be my editor in chief and proofreader. Spelling was not my strong suit grown up. Spell Checker only catches so much she has to catch all the other grammatical errors. That's the public education for you. Not the school system here in America. But it is what it is. You know, it wasn't the greatest English growing up. But hey, they say it's a hard language, right? I'll use that as an excuse. But anyway, I want to throw this up here scrolling at the bottom of screen. All my guests are normally on here. No, they don't have be in the show notes as well. But Phyllis is website Phyllis eleven.com. I know you said you're going through kind of redesign of the website, right?
Phyllis Leavitt 52:18
Where are you designing the website, I hope it'll be up in the next few weeks. But basically, you'll still access it through the same URL. And it'll just be a little bit more focused on it'll just be a better website, it just looks better. And the content will be a little bit more updated on it. But there's a place on the website if you're interested in being on my mailing list so that I can tell you when my book comes out, I'm I've signed a contract with a publisher, and I don't have a date yet of when the book will be released. But if you'd like to be on my mailing list, please sign in on my website. There's a contact me place, if you just have any questions, or you would like, you know, some further resources are information. I'm happy to respond to anyone. And then I'm on the, you know, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, all those places. And I try to post a lot of the talks that I've given and little blurbs that I put out as posts. So
Keith McKeever 53:15
awesome. Yeah, it comes out, you'll have you'll definitely have it updated by then. And I will say I was telling you before we started, you got a lot more information on your website, and then quite a few websites that I go check. Everybody should definitely go check it out. Phil's got a lot of stuff on there. So definitely check out the book I I'm very curious to see what you got on there about, you know, America and therapy. Because I'm a firm believer that everybody in America should be in therapy. But the million dollar question is how do we get more therapists?
Phyllis Leavitt 53:45
Yeah, that's yeah, and how do we incorporate some of the principles of the best therapy into our lives, you know, you don't have to be a therapist to be less judgmental, to be more compassionate, to dig deeper into the causes of some of the dysfunction of our neighbors. You don't have to be a therapist to do that. And that's one of the points of my book is like, how do we take this out of the office and put it in the world? And by the way, I will send you a copy of my book when it comes out
Keith McKeever 54:12
also. Awesome. Yeah, I appreciate it. So before we wrap up, Phyllis, any any other last words?
Phyllis Leavitt 54:19
Or no, I just want to say I really appreciate you having me here. And I love my love talking about bringing healing to America. So thank you for the opportunity to do that for your great questions and great reflections. Thank you. Well, I appreciate
Keith McKeever 54:34
you coming on and sharing with us and I think it's the first time we've ever really kind of done a deep dive on mental health or spirituality is something I really haven't dove too much into. So it's always great to bring a new kind of a new topic to the show. So hope everybody enjoyed it. And like I said, those contact information is in the show link. So make sure you reach out.
Phyllis Leavitt 54:55
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Keith McKeever 54:58
Have a folks hope you enjoyed make sure Have you check out the website battle buddy podcast.net for all information and resources and like I always say, if there's a resource not on there you think should be reach out, let me know and I'll see what I can do about getting a resource on there. And once again, like I said at the top of the show if you're struggling for any reason, remember 980 press one or text 838255 Because battle buddies the most important thing is that you are here tomorrow night
