Combat To College
Join US Army veteran John Davis in his guide to success for student veterans, "Combat to College". Navigate the transition to civilian life with ease, build a winning team, and craft the perfect resume. Learn how to work with challenging professors and push through to graduation. Get the tools and tips you need to win the college battle in this must-read book for student veterans.
In This Episode We Cover:
Be committed, this is an oath of enrollment
Use your veteran grit to dominate college
Handle difficult or political professors
Finding balance between work, school, life
Types of education benefits
Pros vs Cons of Forever GI Bill
Student Veterans of America
Battle Buddy Podcast Guest Links:
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Transcript from Episode 88 with John Davis:
Keith McKeever 0:02
Welcome back to another episode of the battle buddy podcast.
Keith McKeever 0:05
As a veteran, or as a service member, you're entitled to certain benefits when it comes to education, I certainly hope you have taken advantage of them. If you haven't, then you definitely need to pay attention today. I've got an author of a book that you are definitely gonna want to pick up and read. And we're gonna talk all about your education benefits. So stay tuned. Welcome to the battle buddy podcast with Keith McKeever.Welcome to the podcast, John.
John Davis 0:32
Hey, Keith, great to be here. Yeah, well, I'm glad to have you on here. It's weird to say I've talked a little bit education over the over a couple years of doing this podcast. But I've yet to, like have this deep dive into it. So you've written a book combat to college. But before we get into that, tell us just a little bit of your of your military background and a little bit of who you are. I was an enlisted guy in the army. And I did 10 years I did seven years active in the infantry. And that did three years recruiting and deployed twice to Afghanistan.
John Davis 1:04
Not really that special for soldier, no, no, no, no medals of honor or anything like that. But getting out of the military. And my transition for me for such a loop that I wanted to see what I could do to kind of pay that forward to other veterans. I'm sure the hardest and most stressful part of of your entire service is probably the recruiting duty. Yeah, that is 100%. True. And that's what I hear. They force you up there, and they throw you in schools my first day. They just gave me the keys to a government car. And they said, Hey, go find someone join the army. So I walked around Walmart asking people to join the army for like, three hours came back to jected. Totally.
John Davis 1:41
So it's recruiting is not a duty that many people are psyched to do. And it's kind of a career killer for like the infantry people unless you want to remain recruiting forever, which I didn't really want to do.
Keith McKeever 1:47
Well, I don't imagine a whole lot of people wanting to do that. And that story just kind of reminds me because I've got kids, it's like telling your kids to clean their room. And they don't. They're like, Well, where do I start? Yeah, it's like, here's the here's the keys, just go figure it out, I go find some kids to do. Yeah, and now the military is in such a recruiting crisis, you have, I think, for the first time in history, a lot of veterans are telling their children not to join, because 80% of the military comes from military families. So you know, if you talk to eight out of 10 people in military, they have a close family member that served. So it's kind of a family business. And you look at the pullout from Afghanistan, you see some of the other non popular military policies are being pushed forward. And I think for the first time in history, you're having a lot of parents telling their kids hey, you know, who served you know, don't don't join the military, don't go to someone else.
Keith McKeever 2:44
That's understandable. You know, especially if you're our age. And if you've got parents or grandparents who were in Vietnam, or poor grandparents, great grandparents who were in World War Two and or Korea, and it's like, like, look forward four years of war, they're three years in Korea, 10 years in Vietnam, 20 years in the war on terror. And we're not really taking care of our troops at better. Yeah, like, in some ways we are, in many ways, we're not.
John Davis 3:13
Yeah, and that's kind of where I wanted to get in, I first got into veteran advocacy actually, working with homeless veterans. But I kind of wanted to get upstream of that, because working with homeless veterans are kind of like, all the way so far gone, like, you know, imagine yourself on a riverbank, and you're seeing veterans kind of float down the water, you jump in and save them jump in and save them. Eventually, you got to go upstream and see where they're going into the water at. So in one of my conversations with the homeless veterans hub that I was working with, he told me, you know, what happened? How did you get to this point, because obviously, you're not just, you know, fully employed and happy one day, and totally homeless next. And he said, his transition point, when he got out, he went school, but it just didn't work out for him, you know, for one reason or the other. He didn't like the school, he didn't like those students and like the professors, and I kind of started to think, you know, what if what if you would have made it through school, then how different would his life would have been? So I kind of moved back and started working with veterans in education. Because for enlisted people, that's where so many of our transitions start and kind of how well we navigate that transition from our, from the military into our civilian education really sets us up for success or failure. And then you start kind of looking at more of the details and more of the data points and things like that. And one of those things is people with college degrees kill themselves less. And something I kind of get into with the veterans suicide is a lot of people are familiar that 20 veterans kill themselves every day. But nobody really thinks about who these veterans are like who are the veterans that are killing themselves. It's just 20 veterans. And the veterans that kill themselves the most often are people who served for one enlistment in the military enlisted and then they get out if you serve 20 years in the military, your protective factors of you know, not killing yourself really sure. Get up. And one thing that people college degrees don't do is they don't kill themselves near at the rates of people college degrees have. So I kind of dove in education, initially kind of thinking about veteran suicide, but it morphed into, you know, how can I encourage more veterans to go to school and utilize the benefits, like you mentioned earlier?
Keith McKeever 5:19
Some interesting takeaways on that is officers obviously already have that degree when they go in. So when they get out, they can go right into that it was a better paying job, or better position job maybe. And then but enlisted may not have that degree. But typical enlistment is four to six years. If you play your cards, right, and I've said this many times to people, the moment you go in, you should have a plan for the time you get out was four years, six years, 20, your time is going to come up. That's it. So start working on it.
John Davis 5:55
From there, whenever whenever I get a chance to talk to soldiers, I always say, Hey, who's who's getting out of the military who's getting out of the military. And, you know, a few people raise their hand, I said, everyone should raise their hand. Because unless unless you plan on dying in the military, eventually you're gonna get out. And you need to start prepping for that, you know, the day that you realize you're getting out of the military one day, nobody, you know, does 4050 years in uniform, it doesn't happen. And back to your earlier point about officers, officers, they get divorced less than make more money, they kill themselves less, they are homeless, less addicted less, all those things. And the big difference between officers and enlisted people is the college degree. So officers struggle far less with things like PTSD. And, you know, the big differentiation between these two groups is the college degree. But by the time enlisted people get to college, they already are kind of having significant baggage they have married with kids are divorced. They're non traditional students, they have to work over 50% of student veterans have some kind of service connected disability, all these things make education harder to get through. Whereas the the officer when they transition out there to got the degree in the back pocket.
Keith McKeever 7:07
Absolutely. So you wrote the book, combat to college is a great guide for people going through this. I think anybody who's thinking about going to college should read it. And if you're in college, you should pick it up, at least, at least read through it. Or if you're struggling with something, you know, pick the chapter that applies. And it'll help you but I wanted to pick, pick your brain on a couple of different things, because I thought they're powerful. And I guess I'll preface this by saying I think I told you a few weeks ago when we first met, I just finished my degree a little over a year ago, congrats. And it is an interesting process to be a non traditional student. And I started a small junior college in person classes that a pandemic hit, went to all virtual classes. If you're thinking about going back to school, you should. But I was in my mid 30s, married two kids running a business, I had a lot of other things that I was doing. It's a lot on your plate, there really is. But you can do it, you just have to know what you're about to face. It's just like doing an operation order. Like you have to prepare for what you're going to potentially face. And you're going to face challenges, you're going to face frustrations, but you have to be committed to it. And I think that's where your chapter might get this right, your new contract oath of enrollment, which I thought was pretty clever. So break that down for us a little bit what somebody should kind of do what that oath of enrollment would would be?
John Davis 8:38
Well, veterans are very committed people and sometimes even over committed and that I think we tend to look at a lot of our experiences as veterans as kind of drawbacks or disadvantages in life. And when I want veterans to do is look at the advantages they in military service skills, abilities provide. And one of those things is you. If you've, you know, if you've made it through the military, you understand the power of commitment, you understand the power of things like daily routines. So what I want veterans to do is think of each individual semester, kind of as a contract to yourself, like, Hey, I have these four or five classes, I'm committed to going on these dates getting through it. And at the end of it, I sign a contract for another semester. And if you view it like that, you're you're going to stay committed and disciplined with your education. Because if you sign up for the military for years, you're doing everyday, those four years, they're not going to let you go a day early. They're not going to keep you locked. You just do it, do it to that point. And that's kind of what I want veterans do because you know time's gonna keep going. I mean, you're gonna be three years older and three years, whether you get a college degree or not. So understand the what differentiates you between other students is the power of commitment.
Keith McKeever 9:48
And I'll tell you, professors, we'll see we'll see that that comes through. I don't normally inject a whole lot of stories, but I guess I can help myself on the subject but what I went Back in I was sitting in his junior college. One of my one of the biggest reasons I never went back when I originally got out 11 years ago was math because I was terrible at math growing up, I hated math. Which is funny, because I actually got to appreciate it a little bit going back to college, but it makes sense, right? Yeah. So, so the adviser's says, Well, you can take some placement tests and see where you're at. And you can go into, you know, you can go into the intermediate algebra or whatever. And I said, well, then they
John Davis 10:29
said, you can grade Yeah.
Keith McKeever 10:33
That's basically what I told him. I was like, hey, like, what is the the the dumbest level, the earliest level, whatever you want to call it of math that you have, because at this point, time has been like, 15 years since I've been in a math class. Like, I don't remember anything about algebra, other than the x's and y's. I need a complete refresher. And I want to, I want to build the foundation, right? It's like just like basic training, right? They built they break you down, they build you up, I was smart enough to be like, Hey, I'm gonna have to pass algebra and then calculus and statistics. And it's going to be far easier for me if I build a good foundation first. Rather than just try and be like, I'm just gonna try and placement test myself into the middle. That would have been a disaster. But I ended up with this professor and I ended up I must have been with all the high school like flunkies and dropouts, because like half of my job's class, there was only two of us out of like, 15 that showed up every day for class. And I'll tell you what, my professor, I would get done with my exam. Any quiz or exam, I would be the last one done without fail, because I would do do the questions. I go back and check it, I'd look up, I'm the only one in there. There's still 20 minutes a class left, I'd go up and hand it to her. And you know what she did, because I was the kind of person that would polite, respectful, always there, I would always ask questions, and I'll go to office hours, if I didn't know something, she'd look at it and be like, you know, Mr. McKeever, you should go back and try one and four again,
John Davis 11:57
right. And that's, that's the importance of relationships. And that's, that's one thing that I think veterans kind of have an advantage of, is you have that maturity. And you understand if you look at it, like a military mission, it's like, okay, I need all the support I can handle. So I need all the academic support, I need all the resources I can handle, I need, you know, to make good relationships with my professors. Because your professor shouldn't only know when you who you are, when there's an issue or something like that. If you build that foundational relationship, by the time an issue comes up, you're going to be fine. College is a lot simpler than people think, especially for veterans who were used to kind of a simple lifestyle, where it's Hey, right place, right time, right? uniform, you show up every day in school, you're gonna get through, it's, they're not going to kick you out, you're gonna be able to pass your classes. It's it's not as complicated as people make it out to be.
Keith McKeever 12:47
Yeah, I had one professor, I, you know, I got to know, repressor professors pretty well, because I had a few of them that I was older than, but I had asked one of them once said, How do you feel about students that don't show up? And their response to me was, I don't care. I'm a college professor, I get it, hey, by the time they show up on day one they've already paid or their financial aid is paid. So I'm getting paid. So if they don't show up in class, it's an easy grading for me. Yeah. And, and they're like, and I get to teach you and you get, you get more time, they're not taking up time and resources, you get to ask the questions that you want, I get to be here more for you and other students who really want to learn this.
John Davis 13:24
Yeah. And it's a huge deviation from the military, where if you don't show up in the military, as somebody that would be pounding on your door, and about 30 seconds, if you show up late, there's going to be consequences. And veterans are so used to that kind of structured lifestyle, to where everything the military is, you know, like I said earlier, actually kind of simple, you just you show up in the right place, you do what you're told to do, and you're gonna be fine. The civilian world is kind of more chaotic, because you have to kind of craft your own life out of that. So for veterans, when they transition, they're so used to that kind of rigid framework. And again, the college and it's so unstructured, you're like, well, I could go to sleep because I have a test tomorrow. Or I could just go out and get drunk and no one's going to carry that way.
Keith McKeever 14:06
Yeah, I think that's why, you know, you're making an oath yourself as powerful. And that's fine. I wanted you to break that down. Because it's, it's what keeps you on track? Yeah, is when I was it was just like, look, I have to get this degree. I only had so much time until my benefits expired. So it was like it's degree or bust. It's like, I'm not paying for this out of pocket, right? I'm using these benefits. I'm getting this damn degree.
John Davis 14:30
So why the GI Bill is it's the best benefit that you know, that the VA loan or the best benefits that, you know, people get in the military. And it kind of drives me crazy when you have veterans who, you know, just refuse to take advantage of this tremendous thing because you literally get paid to pay to go to school. So why wouldn't you do that? Especially given the fact that you're you put in the time to deserve this? You know, I think a lot of veterans, you know, you have three Life Options after or high school, you have college, the workforce in the military, and most veterans choose the military. So they think education isn't for them. And then it becomes even kind of more daunting, like you mentioned, I'm terrified doing math, because I haven't done. I haven't seen a fraction in in 20 years or something like that. But that's, that's kind of part of it. I mean, it's part of the growth process. You go there you struggle, and then you succeed. And if you go in there with a military mindset, and you apply that military discipline to your education you're gonna get through.
Keith McKeever 15:30
Absolutely. Well, that kind of really leads really well into the next topic, which is veteran grit. So you kind of have a short story in that chapter about something that kind of sparked this idea of veteran grit in your mind. Can you recite that? And how you think that kind of translates to college?
John Davis 15:51
Yeah, I have. I have a friend, a drill, who is a he is a Navy veteran, he's blind. And he went blind, obviously, like in his 20s. And seeing his perseverance and grit, through his education and through life really inspired me to kind of look at my life differently. I remember when I first met him, I had to go pick them up for a race, because we're on this veteran fitness team together. And my buddy called me night before and he's like, Hey, there's this race tomorrow, can you go pick someone up and drive them to it and run with them? I was like, I don't really feel like it. He goes, Well, he's blind. So he needs someone to pick them up. I was like, Ah, shit. Okay, so I went to his house and picked him up. And I had never interacted with a blind person in my entire life. And obviously, like, you know, first thing I say to him, it's dark out here, you know, because like, for the morning, I'm like, shit, and then,
Unknown Speaker 16:42
you know, sensitive thing to say.
John Davis 16:45
And then we go to run together. And I have to, you know, I kind of have to check him in, take him to the bathroom, all those types of things that, you know, I took for granted. And I had to tie myself to him with like, a little rope that he had. And I was runs guy in the trees. I was, you know, just I felt terrible. He tripped over a curb. And because he was faster than me, which was kind of, I don't know, if embarrassing or not, but so he's trying to get me to run faster with him, because he's trying to like win the race. And I'm, I just can't keep up and seeing him go to college. And seeing him like, pursues education, through being blind and keeping such a positive. Such a positive demeanor about all of it, because being blind has to be like, when the hardest things in the world. And stuff that he said to me was being blind for me is was easier, because I was already so organized and disciplined from the military, to where it's like, you know, I'm clean and organized. So when I get dressed in the morning, you know, I know where my clothes are all those types of things. And just seeing his seeing what, what he's been through and when he's continuing to do really inspired me to be like, Okay, well, I'm not going to complain about this. I mean, this guy's taken, he's in college, he's blind. And you know, who, so what am I gonna do?
Keith McKeever 17:59
I mean, college is tough enough as it is right? To navigate me in blind like, Well, I mean, no pun intended, but like, literally to navigate around campus to, to get textbooks with Braille in it, or, you know, to just navigate your life right through college not be able to see like, I can't imagine what kind of extra tools that they need to do that. And extra challenges. So
John Davis 18:23
yeah, and there's another guy on my scooter veterans group and their legs, you know, lost his legs in Iraq. And when you're seeing all these incredible veterans that have been through so much more than you know, than I have been through, or maybe your classic veterans bend through, and they're still working hard and kicking ass, then I think it kind of takes takes your excuses and makes them invalid. If you're like, hey, oh, I can't. I don't want to do math, because I haven't done math in high school. Not since high school. I hate math. That's like, well, you know, this guy's doing it. So rock up.
Keith McKeever 18:54
Yeah, really? Oh, yeah. But back to my example. Like, I felt really bad about that. Like, once I got through it. I took that last, because I did all the algebra and calculus and statistics. Once I was done, I sat back and I was like, Okay, that was rough. But isn't the roughest thing I've been through. Like, when I got out of the military, I looked at that as this mountain that I could not climb this big, scary thing in front of me. Which is weird, because you know, my military, like, right in my rearview mirror, like literally right in the rearview mirror. And it's like, no, I went through basic training. I did two deployments to Iraq, I guarded prisoners in a prison camp for crying out loud, like,
Keith McKeever 19:37
and I was scared, more scared. And sad. Yeah. Like, it's just like, wow, that's really it's kind of embarrassing. Like, yeah.
John Davis 19:50
David Goggins talks about, you know, it's cookie jar experiences to where he, you know, he thinks back to the hard things he's done before that whatever current obstacle is facing, so when I was going through, you know, my hardest times the lowest points, I think back to oh, you know, that mission in Afghanistan when you know, the guy in my platoon got shot, and we still push through and not survive that, or the other experiences in the military that, you know, we all go through. It's like, if I survive that, I think I can get through this, like level one Spanish class, like, I'll figure it out. I mean, it might be a pain, but I'll figure it out. And people, when they take that kind of winning military mindset into their education, are going to find success. So one thing I want to do with the book is also provide veterans the confidence to go to school, because a lot of veterans, I think, kind of hold themselves back before enrolling, so I wanted to Kate, it's for you, you can handle it. And then also kind of some practical and common sense tips to get through it and maximize your experience there. Because it's not just about like getting to the diploma. It's about making the most of that time, you know, how do you set yourself up for success after high do things like networking, because one thing that I've actually been thinking a lot about lately, is talking to some student veterans last week, is your grades aren't really as important as you think they are. Unless you're like shooting for like a competitive master's program, or law degree or something like that. It's not gonna matter in five years, so start thinking about the things that are gonna matter. And those things are everything from your mental health, to the networking you do to setting yourself up for success. It doesn't matter if you get a B minus or an A plus, or a C on this test five years from now. So start thinking about the other things outside the grades.
Keith McKeever 21:34
Yeah. Or if you're like me, your grade point average is already screwed from going to college after high school. Yeah. Yeah. I was not a great student at 18 or 19. I did not care at all. You know, I did I did good. Going back as of right. Yeah, there's so much help you can do to, to a grade point average, that was that was nearly cutting it to begin with
John Davis 21:55
this grade point average already murdered, there's no bring it back. Last thing
Keith McKeever 21:59
is life support. And we are keeping it. We are trying our best. So yeah,
John Davis 22:03
well, I went to I went to grad school at Harvard. And one of the interesting things about there is I didn't care about my GPA at all. And all the other students were so great focused, because there were such academic high performers. And I was the only person in all my classes that was just like, I don't care what I got, as long as I pass. That's all that matters. And at the end of this experience, I'm having a degree from Harvard. I don't care what the GPA says, Whatsoever. And since I graduate, Harvard, nobody has asked me, but I'm certainly in the bottom portion of the class, but I still did it. So why
Keith McKeever 22:32
do I care? Well, you know, the braces mindset that I joke about pretty frequently with things is, is Yeah, somebody is the valedictorian, salutatorian is somebody just squeaked by with a see, okay. Just, you got to remember that doctors and lawyers do that too. Right? So the doctor or lawyer you go to or the dentist, or that surgeon could be an A student, or they could guess the student? Yeah. And I don't mean that to be comforting. Yeah. And that's the truth, though, you know, you don't know. It doesn't say it on the degree.
John Davis 23:08
Yeah, it's really important to think about that to where it's like, okay, so I'm more concerned about making it to the diploma than what my grade say. And plus a college is an excellent place for things like networking, because more people are finding connections and jobs through networking than like traditional sources. So it might not necessarily matter the degree as much of the as the experiences you have there. The internships, the relationships you form, because like the professor like the one who, who helped you out, that person is more than willing to write you a letter recommendation to give you some job leads and stuff like that, if you show up and treat yourself like a serious student.
Keith McKeever 23:46
Oh, absolutely, I think to help with when I got to the four year institution when I did my internship, because I run a business, I'm in real estate, and I was like, I don't work for somebody else for an internship. And so the lady who did a lot of HR stuff, she ran a capstone program, I was talking to her and I was like, do I have to do an internship and go find a company? And she goes, Well, no, there's this other program that like nobody ever uses called a project. But it's kind of like an internship. And I'm like, Well, tell me more. And so they let me you know, I'm a licensed continuing education instructor. So they let me actually do a full 150 hours, basically, internship project. For my own business. I just had to have somebody that's in my business, you know, certified mentor that I was doing, doing everything I did, which was not a problem finding somebody to do that. But it was like, at least I'm doing something for my business. In my line of work that I'm an expert in already and licensed to do
John Davis 24:40
it, then you're more inspired to do it, obviously. Yeah. Education now can be so personalized. I think people are kind of get spun up into all the different things, but your drive builds way more flexible than you think it is. Veterans do struggle more going to school online, because we're such kind of hands on experiential type learners to where we want to like do things. And I think a lot of You know, veterans did get in trouble during the, during the pandemic, because one, you might not be as technologically, as competent as some of these younger people who grew up, you know, using technology and social media for their entire lives. And two, you're more likely to have like, at home distractions, like you're more likely to be married, you're more likely to, you know, like I mentioned earlier, have service connected disability. So going to school online presents extra challenges for veterans, but it is cool that you have that, you know, personal freedom to kind of make it what you want.
Keith McKeever 25:30
Absolutely, yeah, I, my distractions were pretty much two little ones. That's it. Yeah, they
John Davis 25:39
kind of extremely distracting. And your, your normal 18 year old student, or 19 year old college student isn't going to have those, they're not going to need to work, maybe because mom and dad are paying the bills, or they're living at home. So there's extra obstacles in the way of being a student veteran, it's so easy to view those as only negative and ignore the kind of positive aspects like the grit and discipline, and the maturity that we have over the other students.
Keith McKeever 26:03
I know that one thing that helped me was, I've got a dedicated office space. So I was able to shut my door. And it was like, hey, look, you know, six to, I don't know, six to nine o'clock at night. This is dance class time. Like, this is what we got. So don't interrupt the door shut locked.
Keith McKeever 26:21
You know, that's, that's all we got. So. So one more thing that you had in the book that I wanted to focus on was political instructors. And I know you kind of focus on political stuff in there, but it may not necessarily be political, maybe just difficult professors. So break that down for us and how somebody should should deal with that.
John Davis 26:41
Yeah, I think that, you know, as student veterans, we're more likely to be older, and we're more likely to have our own opinions. And these 18, these professors might be teaching the same class for 20 years to the same, like 1819 year old kids, and not provide any pushback. So student veterans can kind of throw a wrench into the power dynamic of the classroom, because obviously, the professor's uninformed one, they're the one teaching, and the students are uninformed. They're there to be taught to learn all those types of things. And I remember when I started school, you know, I'm lucky, I'm 30, I've been divorced, I've been to war, I own my own house. I'm not, you know, as probably as malleable as these younger kids. And there are professors in a lot of institutions that hold their political views, more important than maybe their education. So a lot of veterans can get in trouble. And these types of things. I remember their student veteran in high school, who after, you know, the professor called the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan useless. And he had just gotten back, you know, a year before had lost some friends over there and things like that. So that was a really tough experience for him to hear those types of things. And then on college campuses, they're, I don't want to say there's like anti American sentiment, but it's not really a proud patriotic type place all the time. And student veterans can struggle with that. And including the big gap between the military and civilian populations. Because these professors might have never had a veteran in their classroom, they might know any veterans in their personal life, which I kind of found crazy when I got out because all I knew were veterans, basically. So when I met people that had never met a veteran before, I'm like, Oh, wow. Like this is I feel like this is the responsibility of mine to like, represent the military or something to this person who has no military connections whatsoever. And as time goes on, and on, less and less people are going to have a personal connection to the military.
Keith McKeever 28:35
Oh, that's that's a good point. And yeah, I don't want to say I guess I'll just say it, I don't necessarily mean it this way. But a lot of professors, especially maybe in the social sciences, and stuff like that, may lean a little bit more kind of liberal on social science topics and stuff like that. And, you know, if you go into business, like that's what my degree is in, I didn't have any problems, right? It's the institution, maybe it's just the topic. I don't know. You know, I might have had problems if I went into psychology or sociology or something like that, or education. Who knows. But yeah, you know, what path you choose, could very well determine how much of it have a chance that you run into that, but you may also run into like incompetent professors. Yeah, I had one that was was absolutely terrible at the junior college. He had, I think you'd just been hired and he would have like flop through his notes. And he put everything up on the old school projector like right on the dry erase and this little piece of paper like we had his kids. I should be very careful saying that. Like, we had this kid, some kids grew up with smart boards, but we didn't have it if you're old enough, right? And
Keith McKeever 29:53
anyway, so he would do that he was disorganized. And you'd be like, well, this is what you need to know this. What we're going to learn to then. So then we take the test, and the test results come back and like people are like failing. And we'd be like, well, that's not right. Like you said, this was the answer. This is what I put on here. Now what's wrong, and he fight us on it. And it was like getting into heated arguments. And it got to the point, like security was almost called somebody had their cell phone out, and they were taking video. And as a class, like we were meeting before and after, and everybody's sitting around, like, what do we do
John Davis 30:25
about this plan? Answer pepakura or something? Yeah,
Keith McKeever 30:29
exactly. Like, that's almost what we were doing. Like, okay, how, what do we do? You know, we're like, Okay, now, if he does this next time, like somebody's definitely breaking out the camera, call it security, because this guy is getting defensive. Anyway, without even talking to like, some time went by. And it happened again, nobody talked about what we're going to do. I decided I'm gonna go talk to the Dean of the Business Department. So I go in there, talk to the secretary. She goes, Oh, you'd like to talk to the dean. Yes. So I would about what so I gave the professor's name. She kind of gave me a smirk. She goes in there she goes back out. She goes, the dean will see you now. I go in there, she flips up and his big binder flips to an empty page in his notebook. This is and what's your name?
Keith McKeever 31:07
And what's your statement? About You know, this professor so and so. So she had already had? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, that turns out pretty much the whole class had come in and given a statement, and they're like, look, this guy, he's erratic on what he's teaching. He's, he's saying, this is an exam. And then he's, you know, going back on it. It's like, we're all bringing in our notes. And we're like, this is what he says, and here's our test. Like, anyway, he did not have employment after that semester.
John Davis 31:33
Yeah. And, you know, as well as I do, the military is not short on incompetence, either or toxic personalities or ego trips or things like that, in your relationship with your professors does matter. I mean, it does matter in because the professors can grade you basically, however they want. It's not like a high school multiple choice exam, the professor can basically fail you if they want, so your relationship with them does matter. And you do need to learn how to deal with difficult people. I mean, you hear veterans complain a lot about civilians. And you don't really ever hear civilians complain about veterans, but maybe they they wait to do it until we're not in the room or something. But you have to learn how to deal with difficult professors, when I tell student veterans is, hey, you're here to get an education, you're here to get the diploma, you don't need to like fall on your sword or get into a fight with this professor. And the last thing you want to do is be in a back and forth type argument with a professor because it doesn't look good for you, or them. And like you mentioned, they're likely to get defensive. So the best advice I have for student veterans is just be be knowledgeable, if you want to have an opinion that runs counter to what the professor wants to teach or what their ideological beliefs are. So if you're gonna come with an opinion, make sure you have some, you know, common sense and logic behind it and just be well informed if you're gonna argue with the professor.
Unknown Speaker 32:53
Absolutely, absolutely. Sometimes just shut
John Davis 32:55
up. You know, I mean, it's also an option that you know,
Keith McKeever 33:00
exactly, just bite your lip and just just press on and, yeah, right in the
John Davis 33:05
military all the time. You know, you got to keep your mouth shut in the military, too. So it's, it's not an easy road to keep your mouth shut. In fact, it's the hardest thing for veterans sometimes. And, like I said, the best thing, the best thing I'll say is just don't argue with professors, because there's no nothing to gain from it.
Keith McKeever 33:23
Always a good idea, always good idea. So we kind of talked a little bit about balance, I kind of wanted to kind of talk about that. But you know, school personal life, stuff like that. What advice do you have for your student veterans on kind of managing all that? I don't believe that there's a true balance, you know, there's no 5050 balance. But you do need to find what works for you.
John Davis 33:46
Yeah. And, you know, there's a chapter in the book called learning to say no, and I think that's very important for veterans is you have to learn to say no to things that aren't going to contribute to your goals. So that might mean letting people down. That might mean letting your friends and family down and things like that. But during your education, you're there to get the education just like you couldn't, you know, call out sick for the military or bail in your responsibilities there. You have the same responsibilities in college, but they're more self imposed, like we talked about the contract with yourself. So say no to the things that are going to hold you back from accomplishing what what you need to accomplish. Because you do need to put in some time studying, you do need to put on some time, networking for your future and things like that. So and, you know, like we talked about balancing your life is more difficult for student veterans, because you have more going on, you might need to go to the VA, you know, which could be an hour away or whatever. You might, you probably have kids or relationship or if you're like me, you at least have a divorce or you need to work it's you have to balance all those things around your school schedule. But school eventually comes to an end. You know, those three four years are going to come to an end. So staying disciplined and learning to say no is key for student veterans.
Keith McKeever 34:55
I agree with that one. So I want to dive right into Who? a side topic net? Well, you know, it's related, but what types of education benefits are there out there? You know, what kind of schools can go to I think a lot of veterans think of, Oh, I gotta go to this four year school, or I gotta go to I gotta go get this bachelor's degree, right? Obviously, you could go get your Masters, but you could go get, you know, an associate's degree certificates, graduate certificates. I mean, there's all kinds of different things. I know, there's some more, but what other kinds of avenues can people go that then, you know, may not think of, traditionally,
John Davis 35:31
I think that, you know, when people think of the GI Bill, they kind of view it as only for traditional education only sitting in the classroom. And that that's not appealing to a lot of veterans, you know, many times because like I mentioned, we're more experiential hands on learners. So the GI Bill is kind of recognize that and it's adjusted with the times to where, hey, if you want to go learn how to be a plumber, if you want to go be a welder, if you want to go do these certification programs, the GI bill is going to pay for that they're going to pay for things like police academies, they pay for flight training, scuba school, all these different things and certifications that you can get. And, you know, the four year liberal arts degree might not be appealing to you, which is, which is fine. But there are things that you can take advantage of the you might not think and there are veterans who that do programs, not knowing the GI bill pay for them. And they come out of pocket for some of those certifications, like you mentioned, especially within like the cyber and it stuff that's kind of blowing up now, the GI Bill will pay for a lot of those certifications, and pay you to go to school while you're getting that they'll pay you your BH. So for veterans, explore your different GI Bill options, it's usually best to kind of find a path and then find out how the government can pay for it. Because they're paying for more and more nowadays. So don't only think of Gi bills, traditional school, think of it as a way to get training certifications for your future. So yeah, those certifications are key, especially in the like cyber and it worlds where they might not care about the degree. But you do need to have certifications and XYZ in order to qualify for a job.
Keith McKeever 37:05
Yeah, there's a lot of ways to pay for things. I mean, if you serve at a certain time, you've got the Montgomery GI Bill, post 911 GI Bill forever GI Bill, which I want to go into here in a minute. But
Keith McKeever 37:17
you know, sort of states have different grants, you've got the Pell Grant, you've got, you know, Private and Corporate Scott, scholarships, you've got how office change was the RMD for the vocational rehab, and whatever that is,
John Davis 37:31
yeah, so you don't apply for if you're done with your GI Bill, you can apply for more time, using the voc rehab program, which a lot of veterans don't know that think, Oh, my GI bills, you know, we'll say it's almost gone. I can't qualify for more education. Well, if you have one day on your dry bill, like literally one day, it'll pay for an entire semester. And if you have that one day, and you have over 10% disability rating from the VA, you can qualify for Voc Rehab, which Voc Rehab is something you have to be approved for. And it's more geared towards specific education. So say you're like I need this certification or this degree to work in this job. So then they're more geared towards actual employment, as opposed to just you know, GI Bill, you can just use it for whatever, it doesn't matter. You can basically use it to go get a degree and whatever worthless thing that you want. But the voc rehab is something they have to approve you for. It has to be geared towards education or had to be geared towards specific employment.
Keith McKeever 38:29
Yeah, I think there's a couple things. Other things I wanted to point out too, that, like, in my particular case, I had the Montgomery GI Bill. And so it was advantageous with some people. In some states, it's not but for me it was to use it first. And then I still have a whole 12 months of additional post 911 that I could use my time mine up almost perfectly that my Montgomery GI Bill ran out with three weeks left in my final semester. So I couldn't find that one better. But you know, some states not know what every state has, but I'm in Illinois, so if somebody watching or listening is from Illinois, Illinois has an Illinois veterans grant, which is absolutely killer, where if you enlist in Illinois and return within six months, you get your tuition paid for it any state school up to 120 credit hours. And you can stack it with the Montgomery GI Bill.
John Davis 39:23
Yeah, and there's there's more eat. Like you mentioned, I didn't know that for Illinois, but each state has their different stuff. I know, you know, Texas, if you're if you get 100% disability or if you're retired from the military, your children get all these educational benefits and things like that. So I think we're kind of quick to not look past maybe the 10% discount of Home Depot and forget about all the things our military service qualifies us for. But like yeah, I didn't know that by Illinois. And that's awesome. I have to look into that. Oh, no, I
Keith McKeever 39:49
think it's an incredible one. It's I think it's probably pretty rare. I don't know if any other states are doing it but even Texas, you know if you're a retiree or for your children to be able to go Because you may only serve four years and not be able to pass along your GI Bill. But to still be able to give education benefits to your children is huge. Yeah, that's so my kids all the time, they're gonna have to earn it academically or athletically. Yeah. Because they're gonna have to join the military themselves.
John Davis 40:15
But yeah, my buddy is telling me, who was an Iraqi got shot in Iraq, in his lay he goes, the best thing ever happened to me was I got shot in Iraq, in my legs, and my kids can go to school in Texas for free to state schools. So, you know, it's there's benefits out there you can take advantage of and it's, it's definitely easy to overlook them, because no one's going to put them in your face. No one's going to be like, you know, unless you run into so many Illinois, no one's going to tell you about that. There are things you have to do to put the legwork in yourself.
Keith McKeever 40:42
Yeah, you definitely have to look at all those things. That's why I said like, scholarships, you know, and the Pell Grant, like, you know, Pell Grant is income driven. I know that I don't know what the requirements are. But, I mean, it's like, I think like, $3,000 a semester
John Davis 40:56
on top of your GI Bill, you qualify for that you can get the three grand so that's, that's awesome.
Keith McKeever 41:02
Yeah, I mean, just think about what that can help you with, you know, with books or other things like that. I mean, there's always other expenses.
John Davis 41:08
Yeah. You know, in New York, I was making more money than I did when I was in Afghanistan, just because in New York, BH and stuff is so high.
Keith McKeever 41:16
Does it surprise me? Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like weird, I was
John Davis 41:19
getting paid more to coat to this classes that I did shout out and Afghanistan, but now that's the government for you. I was
Keith McKeever 41:26
kind of like when I was going here with elderly veterans grant. I mean, they paid the tuition, and we just state schools. And, and the Montgomery GI Bill, you know, it pays the member directly. But most of my expenses were paid for. So I mean, I bought a laptop. And I needed, you know, few accessories and some books every semester.
John Davis 41:44
Yeah, now, forever GI Bill. I mean, like, you're run out of time. But now people, you know, Trump passed it, so you have forever to use it. But that can also be kind of a problem, because then you can put it off. Like, you were like, hey, if I don't use this, it's going to run out. And then I've wasted this benefit. But for a lot of other veterans. Now, look, I'll go to school later, I'll go to school later. And then before you know, it, obviously never go to school, because there's no good time to do something like that, especially veterans being non traditional students. And
Keith McKeever 42:10
so I was gonna ask what was some of the pros and the cons were because I think that's definitely a big con is, you don't want to get to the point where you think, well, I'll just use it later. And then you wake up one day, and you're like, Well, I'm 60 years old. I tried to work for another five or 10 years, maybe I can use my benefits now. Well, is your point.
John Davis 42:30
Right? At that point, you might as well just, you know, someone else or something like that. But hey, at least give the benefits to your kids, if you're not gonna do it, at least give them to your kids.
Keith McKeever 42:39
Good point. So is there any other pros and cons with that forever GI Bill? Or can you explain you know a little bit more about what that is, because I think it's a little bit more applicable, at least for those that are serving, now we're gonna all qualify for that.
John Davis 42:50
Yeah. And now, I mean, for people who joined, you know, like, when we did, you don't have to pay into it anymore, which is nice. I mean, I remember, you had to get 100 bucks taken out of every check, you know, every month for to qualify for it. Now, you don't have to pay into it, which is pretty cool for people. So every now I'll get our money back now, ya know, there's and then, so you'd have to pay into it, and you have essentially forever to use your GI Bill. So when you're coming out of the military, a lot of veterans, veterans will put it off because thinking, hey, I'll I'll go later or have this thing. And that same with, you know, veterans who start school and then don't finish. Usually, I tell veterans, hey, if you can, I mean, sometimes you might have take a semester off, you know, God forbid, you have sickness in your family, you have some serious issue you need to take care of. But if you can stick with school straight through, then do that. Because once you, once you stop, it's harder to start again, once you take a semester off, then you took a year off, then you take two years off, and then you know, in the past, you'd run out of your GI Bill. But now you're not going to run out of it. So it makes it easier to be like, Oh, I'll take a year off school. So I think the Forever GI Bill is, it's something with good intentions. But you know, just because you have good intentions doesn't mean necessarily going to have good results. Because if you give people like, you know, 15 years, once they get out of the military to go to school, and they don't do it, it's like, Well, you had you had 15 years, I don't know what to tell you here. I mean, you know,
Keith McKeever 44:16
thinking arguing argument can be made to give people less time, you still wanna give people plenty enough time because of the complexities of being a non traditional student, but,
John Davis 44:27
and so many people, I mean, half veterans, like, don't even take advantage of that only use a dry belt. They don't pass it on to their kids and a lot that start don't finish. So that's why I felt like reading this book was important because that first year when he got in the military is really so important to set your life up for success. So it got me really interested in on the transition process, like how veterans transition out of the military into the civilian lives and where they go from there. And that first year is critically important because momentum is vital from the battle. Field to college to life, once you build some momentum, you're going to be good. But at the same time, you can, you can also build backwards momentum, you can start screwing up like the homeless veteran I mentioned earlier, hey drops out of school, then he can't find a job. And then he doesn't have good family support. He's not connected any veteran organizations. So before you know it, you know, you end up homeless, but if you would have stayed in school, kind of fought through it, you know, figured it out, then, you know, maybe it's life would have would have turned out differently.
Keith McKeever 45:30
I would argue it definitely would have. Yeah, you know, but, you know, actually what you outlined, right, there are things that I've, for a long time felt like, are the reason that veterans end up in those situations, homelessness, suicide, substance abuse, its financial legal issues, its lack of close family support, and his lack of connection to our community, veteran community, its lack of purpose in gainful employment. Yeah, that kind of ties into the education, like, do you have the degree or the education to go get that job that fulfills you, and gives you that passion in life. And a lot of that stuff is all tied in, you know, and mixed in, and the more those are gone, just like like that, that gentleman, the more like 100 gonna fall into a problem.
John Davis 46:14
Yeah, and every transition out of the military is so unique and different. Because everybody's from different places, you know, whether, if you're transitioning out of the military, from Germany, and you're coming back to like your time to Illinois, or if you're, you know, there's so many different ways to transition out, and everyone has different skills, goals, all those different things. So the transition process is so personalized, that the military really struggles with cetera and setting veterans up for success. Because there's so many different angles, you can go, a life journey in America, getting out in the military use be kind of simple, like coming back World War Two, like, Okay, I come back, I get married, I have two kids, I get a job at the factory, I take two vacations a year. Now, there's so many choices out there, you know, for veterans take care of or veterans to choose from, you kind of get this choice paralysis, where you're entering kind of uncertain job market, like I talked to his female veteran the other day, and she's like, she's getting out. And she's like, I don't know, whether go to law school, or like start only fans, because the the life is so confusing. Now, you know, like to where there's so many different options out there in the world, that it's hard to pick one, as opposed to back in the day, you know, you just get out, go back to Illinois, get a job, you know, working at the factory or whatever, and you'd be fine. Now American veterans are faced with kind of a uncertain and a constantly evolving job market.
Keith McKeever 47:36
Yeah. That goes back to that purpose. You got to have that purpose in life, whatever, whatever your passion is. And I would say that, if you haven't got that, and you're getting out of the military, you might as well just go ahead and raise a hand again and say, Yeah, that sounds really until something is smack you in the back of the head and said, Hey, this is what I want to do with my life. Like, I was out for a couple of years, I don't think I was man, I was probably about 30. I'd say about 30. When, like, things in life just kind of clicked for me. Where it was like, oh, okay, you know, I'm a dad, I'm a husband. You know, I'm in real estate, like, this is my career, this is what I do. Like, I was finally comfortable with it and comfortable with who I was. And this is the path I'm on in life, this is what I want to do. Like, before that it was like, this is really what I want to do. Is this the direction of, you know, I gotta, let's see, I was like, 20, almost 27 When I got out of lotus, you know, so I had been out for a couple of years, right? You know, before it finally just kind of clicked and hit, you know, hit me the right way.
John Davis 48:40
I give people the analogy, when they get out of you're kind of you're boarding the ship. So you're in the military world, and you're boarding the ship to go to the civilian world. But that journey is not as easy as you think it's going to be sometimes you can take off, you get kind of shipwrecked and lost in this in between confusing mental place that people call like veteran purgatory, where you're in there, and you're not in the military anymore, but you're not comfortable in the civilian world. And a lot of veterans kind of hover in this space. And everyone kind of takes, you know, different time periods to get from one side to the other. Some veterans gonna take years to kind of figure out who they are against civilian and reestablish your identity and find the purpose. Some veterans kind of zip right over and, you know, establish your life and things like that. And it's such an individual journey that the military has failed to prepare. It's transitioning veterans for it, because we have an individualized process.
Keith McKeever 49:34
We are aware of who does the transition program, right. What department?
John Davis 49:41
The department of labor?
Keith McKeever 49:43
Yes. Yeah. That's that. I mean, I, some people are so dumbfounded. Yeah. And they learn that
John Davis 49:49
there's a fragment. Yeah. It's a it's a fragmented approach, because you have the Department of Labor. You have the VA, and then you have the DOD. And all these groups, of course, are the government so they're halfway incompetent. Even though
John Davis 50:00
meaning they communicate so well together, yeah. And then you have,
John Davis 50:04
I remember when I got in the military, I just sat down at a desk for a week and listen to some guy in a suit, talk to me about building resumes. And then you know, they kicked me out of the door, and then that was kind of it, they put, you know, hundreds of $1,000 in yours training you to be a soldier. And then on the back door, you don't really get that kind of time and attention. So it's up to veterans to take personal responsibility for your own transition, you know, responsibility in the military is shared within the group within a team within a platoon or whatever. But responsibility on civilian side of veterans get out is its individual, you have to take care of yourself, nobody takes care of you the way the military takes care of you. They focus on all the individual things. So you can focus on your job, they give you a place to live, they give you a stipend for food, they tell you what to wear, even, they tell you how to talk, nobody, you know, has all these programs to take care of you like the military does. But when you get out, all that kind of falls apart, and you have to balance running your own life and your job or employment or education or whatever you're doing.
Keith McKeever 51:08
Yeah, it all falls on your shoulders. But the good news is, there are you know, organizations out there, you know, where you can find mentors, you know, you can go to your Legion, your VFW, whatever nonprofits to get some things, but we have to wrap up the show, I didn't want to highlight another one that I was a member of. And that is a Student Veterans of America, you kind of alluded to it a little bit. So that can be another great place as you're navigating this new transition, where you can reach out to some other people who are going through it or have been through it, and maybe at least get their two cents or their mentorship through the process and maybe make it a little easier, smooth the waters out a little bit for the Navy, folks. So you tell us a little bit what what is Student Veterans of America? Why should somebody get involved in the organization?
John Davis 51:57
Sure. So Student Veterans of America is it's a national organization, they actually just had their national conference recently. But what they do is set up chapters at different schools. So every major institution is going to have some type of Student Veterans of America chapter. If they don't have one, you can, you can start one as well. But these groups are places for student veterans to kind of meet, get to know each other, and form a team kind of to go at your education. So my school had a tremendous Student Veterans of America program, where we had a group, we got together weekly, for happy hour, we had fundraisers, we did things like Wreaths Across America, we volunteer in the community with the VFW, we did all these things together. And that really forged for me, you know, a, another team to be on. And you know, all these veterans from different branches came together. And we're all pursuing a similar education or similar mission of, you know, education. So being able to form that kind of community is really important, because, you know, nothing is as strong as bonds in the military. And sometimes you need people around, you just kind of get it. And if you're around other student veterans while you're in college, they're going to understand your experiences.
Keith McKeever 53:11
Absolutely. It makes just a little bit easier. Yeah. If that's if that's not the overarching theme of today, right? Make it a little bit easier. You can,
John Davis 53:21
let's get to Yeah.
Keith McKeever 53:23
So I want to throw your your information up here, your website, John H. Davis, writer.com. It's in the show notes for viewers and listeners. But is there any other way besides that, that people can reach out to you
John Davis 53:37
as John H Davis writer, and then my website, which has my blog, I have my student veterans semester journal for sale on there, which is here. So for student veterans who might not want the book, I designed a 16 week college semester, or college semester, a journal that kind of takes you week by week, and gives you different tasks to do schedules and things like that. And then my book, which you can also find on on Amazon.
Keith McKeever 54:03
Awesome. Yeah, cuz you don't want to miss the sign up for the next semester classes. Yeah. You'll really be kicking yourself in that situation. Right. So awesome. Well, John, I appreciate you coming on here and highlighting your book combat to college, your 16 week, semester guide. I really appreciate it. As long overdue to have a conversation about college and all this stuff. There are a lot of valuable nuggets in here for future college bound veterans.
John Davis 54:32
Yeah. Like I mentioned, college is the first place so many veterans start out and how they do that really matters. So I hope to provide a small impact to help student veterans. Awesome.
Keith McKeever 54:42
Well, you take it easy and appreciate you being on the show.
John Davis 54:44
Easier. Thanks, Keith.
Keith McKeever 54:47
All right there you have folks hope you enjoyed that. As as always check out my website battle buddy podcast dotnet for all kinds of information resources on a variety of topics. I did just in the beginning of January of 2023 Edge Patient resources on there so go check that out it is new as of 2023 and if you're struggling for any reason national suicide hotline number is 988 press one or you can text 838255
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
